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  1. #1
    Thanatos's Avatar Now Is Not the Time
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    Default Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197

    A study using census data from nine countries shows that religion there is set for extinction, say researchers.

    The study found a steady rise in those claiming no religious affiliation.

    The team's mathematical model attempts to account for the interplay between the number of religious respondents and the social motives behind being one.

    The result, reported at the American Physical Society meeting in Dallas, US, indicates that religion will all but die out altogether in those countries.

    The team took census data stretching back as far as a century from countries in which the census queried religious affiliation: Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland.

    Nonlinear dynamics is invoked to explain a wide range of physical phenomena in which a number of factors play a part.

    One of the team, Daniel Abrams of Northwestern University, put forth a similar model in 2003 to put a numerical basis behind the decline of lesser-spoken world languages.

    At its heart is the competition between speakers of different languages, and the "utility" of speaking one instead of another.

    "The idea is pretty simple," said Richard Wiener of the Research Corporation for Science Advancement, and the University of Arizona.

    "It posits that social groups that have more members are going to be more attractive to join, and it posits that social groups have a social status or utility.

    "For example in languages, there can be greater utility or status in speaking Spanish instead of [the dying language] Quechuan in Peru, and similarly there's some kind of status or utility in being a member of a religion or not."Dr Wiener continued: "In a large number of modern secular democracies, there's been a trend that folk are identifying themselves as non-affiliated with religion; in the Netherlands the number was 40%, and the highest we saw was in the Czech Republic, where the number was 60%."

    The team then applied their nonlinear dynamics model, adjusting parameters for the relative social and utilitarian merits of membership of the "non-religious" category.

    They found, in a study published online, that those parameters were similar across all the countries studied, suggesting that similar behaviour drives the mathematics in all of them.

    And in all the countries, the indications were that religion was headed toward extinction.

    However, Dr Wiener told the conference that the team was working to update the model with a "network structure" more representative of the one at work in the world.

    "Obviously we don't really believe this is the network structure of a modern society, where each person is influenced equally by all the other people in society," he said.

    However, he told BBC News that he thought it was "a suggestive result".

    "It's interesting that a fairly simple model captures the data, and if those simple ideas are correct, it suggests where this might be going.

    "Obviously much more complicated things are going on with any one individual, but maybe a lot of that averages out."
    Obviously, nothing is truly set in stone, but what surprised me honestly were the countries listed. I expected a few others to be on that list, and others being on the list at all was also pretty interesting.

  2. #2
    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    While I am not displeased or surprised to see my own country.

    IRELAND?!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pious Agnost View Post
    While I am not displeased or surprised to see my own country.

    IRELAND?!
    While it is true that Ireland is a very strongly religious country (My parents are very religious and everyone I know of their age is), I'm 18 and don't believe, and the only religious people I know of my age are muslims. Everyone else is non religious.

    There has been a gigantic decrease in religiosity over the last generation. When I'm an old man I think nearly all of the population will be non-religious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    How the hell did they come to the conclusion of that for Canada? Over 70% of the country is Christian and we have large, thriving jewish/muslim populations. Almost all of our immigrants come from religious areas in the world as well like the middle east.
    Ireland is even worse, we have an even higher population of believers, yet I believe it.
    Last edited by removeduser_4536284751384; March 23, 2011 at 04:31 PM.

  4. #4
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    While it is true that Ireland is a very strongly religious country (My parents are very religious and everyone I know of their age is), I'm 18 and don't believe, and the only religious people I know of my age are muslims. Everyone else is non religious.
    I agree with this impression..............it makes me more special: Yay.

    Also third generation muslims are becoming more secular, just look at the mosque and the muslim ghetto in Clonskeagh, there's like five awesome chinese take-aways there, almost everything has pork in it and they do great business.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
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  5. #5
    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    There has been a gigantic decrease in religiosity over the last generation. When I'm an old man I think nearly all of the population will be non-religious.

    Ireland is even worse, we have an even higher population of believers, yet I believe it.
    Ok I have two objections:

    1) Does that even matter? The point isnt that religion is up or down, its that it will go extinct. Its a prediction. Its obviously a meaningless prediction if within one year theism drops by like 0.23% and you say "if trends continue religion will go extinct". Well no . Even if the drop is substantial, thats basically meaningless. The point is to evaluate long term trends as well as culture, and I cant see how this "utility" nonsense touches it at all. It has no explanation as to why people drop or pick up a religion with the exclusion of one in which the rich and prosperous believe [or dont] and are extremely aggressively promoting that. Which just doesnt exist anywhere in the west regardless of what were talking about. Utility has nothing to do with modern day faith, nor does utility adequately explain past faith. Why were there Christians back in the days when you'd be killed for it? Certainly wasnt very useful. It doesnt explain revival movements where faith went from declining and decrepit to frenetically popular in less than a decade. Did it magically increase its utility? No, a charismatic leader convinced people of its truth and changed perceptions.

    2) How can you claim your experiences are representative as a whole? When I was irreligious, "somehow" I knew no religious. When I became religious, I hardly know any irreligious. Its rare for people to hang out with individuals across all political, religious, racial and linguistic spectrums, its just not how humanity is. We insulate ourselves naturally. I dont even know if we can rely on polls for accuracy in dealing with religion since a lot of people can read questions in different ways. Theres plenty of examples where a question on religion lead to a huge level of atheism/agnosticism whereas once the question was reworked almost all of them were Christian, simply because a lot of the Christians didnt self identity with a particular denomination and chose the "none" category. They identified with none of the denominations listed on the poll. Just stating my skepticism over impressions and polls of this nature, not to say there worthless and we should disregard them but they should be taken with grains of salt.
    Last edited by Squiggle; March 23, 2011 at 05:57 PM.
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  6. #6
    Vir Triumphalis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    The research forgot Sweden, which is the most atheistic country.

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    Hakkapeliitta's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by REUBEN23 View Post
    The research forgot Sweden, which is the most atheistic country.
    Reading the article, the reason why Sweden is not mentioned is that it doesn't have the relevant census data. If I remember correctly, Finland is the most religious of the Nordic countries, the Hillbilly Bible Belt if you will

  8. #8
    Vir Triumphalis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakkapeliitta View Post
    Reading the article, the reason why Sweden is not mentioned is that it doesn't have the relevant census data. If I remember correctly, Finland is the most religious of the Nordic countries, the Hillbilly Bible Belt if you will
    Doesn't have a relevant census data? Sweden is a 1st world country and them having no relevant census data is downright absurd.
    It doesn't matter as long as Sweden is the most atheistic country.

  9. #9
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Well, if one considers that religion came from out of a twisted version of the Gospel and continues to do so, it is inevitable that the outcome would be as the Bible says which is a great falling away. Religion cannot and never could fulfil what regenerate Christianity does, the one being manmade and the other from God.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakkapeliitta View Post
    Reading the article, the reason why Sweden is not mentioned is that it doesn't have the relevant census data. If I remember correctly, Finland is the most religious of the Nordic countries, the Hillbilly Bible Belt if you will
    That can't be right we have censuses for absolutely everything! Religion will die probably die here as well, I think this is a good sign and that religion one day will die out completely and never shows it ugly face again.
    These fine gentlemen's have thanks to their consistent idiotic posts have earned their place on my ignore list: mrmouth, The Illusionist, motiv-8, mongrel, azoth, thorn777 and elfdude. If you want to join their honourable rank you just have to post idiotic posts and you will get there in no time.

  11. #11
    Hakkapeliitta's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by molonthegreat View Post
    That can't be right we have censuses for absolutely everything! Religion will die probably die here as well, I think this is a good sign and that religion one day will die out completely and never shows it ugly face again.

    From the article in OP: "The team took census data stretching back as far as a century from countries in which the census queried religious affiliation: Australia, Austria, Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Ireland, the Netherlands, New Zealand and Switzerland."

    To me that implies that Sweden doesn't have census data going back a hundred years that specifies religious affiliation. Considering how religiously homogenous Sweden has been it's not too far-fetched, though I may be wrong.

    As to religion going extinct in Finland, I don't really care as long as it's not replaced by other kinds of superstition. Christianity in Finland is mostly so apathetic that nothing would probably change if it went the way of the dodo, except what political opposition there is to gay marriage would go away which of course would be great.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hakkapeliitta View Post
    As to religion going extinct in Finland, I don't really care as long as it's not replaced by other kinds of superstition. Christianity in Finland is mostly so apathetic that nothing would probably change if it went the way of the dodo, except what political opposition there is to gay marriage would go away which of course would be great.
    This points out the flaw of this study rather well.

    Finland has most people being religious on paper, but only something like 1-2% of population participate sermons etc whatevers.

    And this contains the ultrareligious groups where such activity is very high!

    Most people in Scandinavia are christians on paper and nothing more. How can religion die away when it is not practiced?


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  13. #13
    ♔DARTH LEGO♔'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    ....ahhh the march of Social Darwinism......

  14. #14
    Pious Agnost's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Quote Originally Posted by ♔BayonetFodder♔ View Post
    ....ahhh the march of Social Darwinism......
    How is Social Darwinism relevant?

  15. #15
    ♔DARTH LEGO♔'s Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    simplified version:

    as we grow up we find we need less and less bollocks complicating our lives, religion is one of those complications that humanity is currently outgrowing and it seems at an increasingly rapid pace...

  16. #16

    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    This would be my reaction if religion died out. Organised religion anyway I'm not too fussed about anything else people get up to behind closed doors.


  17. #17

    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Finland is the place Santa comes from afterall.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Not being religious isn't qute the same as being atheist though if no-one were religious atheism as a reaction against theism wouldn't exist.

  19. #19
    Vir Triumphalis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    Of course. I'm not saying that atheists in Sweden are the clear majority.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Religion may become extinct in nine nations.

    I wouldn't say it's an "extinction" but rather more and more people are apathetic towards religion (passive Atheism), and thus Churches become like museums. The doctrine of religion of religion is not going anywhere.
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