On Elves and their departure into the West

[Ajidica]

Is there going to be any special mechanisms that make the Elves more lore-accurate then in TATW? While TATW is a great mod, the 'conqure Arda with your Noldorin stacks of doom' pushes plausibility to the limit and appears flat out ridiculous in the Fourth Age. One of the things I've always liked about FATW is its attention to detail and accuracy to middle earth lore and it would be dissapointing to see the enviroment compromised by Noldorin stacks of doom conquering Arda.

The same question can be applied to the dwarves.

[Aradan]

Yes, Elves and Dwarves both start with very low population in their own settlements (Elves lower than Dwarves), and that population does not grow at all even with low tax rate, Dwarrowdelf being the only exception. Outside their own settlements they cannot recruit their own units, so essentially every single unit of Elves/Dwarves recruited is elves/dwarves lost forever (unless disbanded back in the settlement without having suffered casualties). Their home settlements also have a very low max population threshold, so even if the player disbands troops from other settlements there, the population will start dropping until it reaches that threshold again. We are also considering making Elves actually lose population slowly from their Lindon settlements, but this is still under discussion...

[acci_dent]

essentially every single unit of Elves/Dwarves recruited is elves/dwarves lost forever (unless disbanded back in the settlement without having suffered casualties)

That is pretty cool.

Have you figured out a way to deal with the aging of Elf/Dwarf family members? With it being hardcoded and characters doomed to die around age 70 (without save-scumming) the only solutions I could come up with were either changing all instances of 'died of old age' to 'decided to go away forever and ever' or by completely removing Elf and Dwarf characters entirely and just using human merceneries to lead armies, manage cities and so on. Both of which sorta feel like cop-outs.

[Stark1]

Yes, Elves and Dwarves both start with very low population in their own settlements (Elves lower than Dwarves), and that population does not grow at all even with low tax rate, Dwarrowdelf being the only exception. Outside their own settlements they cannot recruit their own units, so essentially every single unit of Elves/Dwarves recruited is elves/dwarves lost forever (unless disbanded back in the settlement without having suffered casualties). Their home settlements also have a very low max population threshold, so even if the player disbands troops from other settlements there, the population will start dropping until it reaches that threshold again. We are also considering making Elves actually lose population slowly from their Lindon settlements, but this is still under discussion...

How will AI cope with that? It will probably bleed elven settlements dry with relentless recruitment.

[Aradan]

Didn't the TATW team figure out a way to make aging almost irrelavent? I could have sworn reading that they set ages for Elves to the maximum possible, but I don't recall how (I do remember they said it was like 150 or something). Since MTW2 uses almost the exact same campaign map engine as RTW, wouldn't it be possible to borrow some of their code?

If that isn't possible, couldn't you just set them all at 16 at start and load them up with traits that give long life?

Nah, the TATW team didn't figure anything out, M2 simply allows editing of certain age-related thresholds, quite a few mods change them. But RTW doesn't allow anything like that.

Starting characters 16 years old means they can't have grown children. If it works, we are going to start certain characters 127 (unless 123 is the max possible on descr_strat, can't recall atm) years old and let them turn 0 the next turn and then start again.
(EDIT: nah, max starting age is 120, so there are 14 turns during which the character can die of old age)

EDIT: Completely off topic, but it wasn't worth starting a new thread about it. Are the faction guides still around anywhere? I recalled them being on modrealms, but that site apparently isn't up any more.

Some are around the forum, if yous earch, but for some reason we haven't put them together somewhere (I'll try to find them).

How will AI cope with that? It will probably bleed elven settlements dry with relentless recruitment.

AI gets some assistance. Plus, as the AI, Elves are quite docile (unless attacked) and don't recruit much.

[Revelo]

AI gets some assistance. Plus, as the AI, Elves are quite docile (unless attacked) and don't recruit much.

This is one thing I wondered about, I want to try Elves and Dwarves out as the population issue will make it a challenge, how are you guys going to handle the need for money and a healthy population base? Obviously if our settlements are going to be rather depopulated in a number of turns it will be a bit offputting

I assumed Dwarves would have less issues with dwindling populations mind, I heard they didn't start decling rapidly untill the end of the Fourth Age and they prospered initially. Then again things are panning out differently here.

[Ajidica]

Interesting. I'm assuming the victory conditions are adjusted to match their numerical weakness?

[Aradan]

We've not yet decided on VCs (not easy to find suitable ones for a faction that all it really needs to do is "survive" the passing of time), but yes, the VCs will not be "conquer 500 regions and be the master of the universe".

Mind you, Elves can always recruit non-elven units in non-elven settlements (and the same deal for dwarves), so it's not like the camapign will be fought with just 1000 soldiers.

[Aradan]

Nope, not figured that one out yet. Probably impossible to change ageing, but we're gonna give it a shot.

Atm the solution is the "got tired of Middle-earth and left" thingy. Not ideal, but more elegant than "Your elf has DIED OF OLD AGE".

[Ajidica]

Didn't the TATW team figure out a way to make aging almost irrelavent? I could have sworn reading that they set ages for Elves to the maximum possible, but I don't recall how (I do remember they said it was like 150 or something). Since MTW2 uses almost the exact same campaign map engine as RTW, wouldn't it be possible to borrow some of their code?

If that isn't possible, couldn't you just set them all at 16 at start and load them up with traits that give long life?


EDIT: Completely off topic, but it wasn't worth starting a new thread about it. Are the faction guides still around anywhere? I recalled them being on modrealms, but that site apparently isn't up any more.

[Ajidica]

Not related to the topic, but I don't want to start spamming one question threads.
Is it known what unit size the mod will be balenced for?

[Aradan]

This is one thing I wondered about, I want to try Elves and Dwarves out as the population issue will make it a challenge, how are you guys going to handle the need for money and a healthy population base? Obviously if our settlements are going to be rather depopulated in a number of turns it will be a bit offputting

I assumed Dwarves would have less issues with dwindling populations mind, I heard they didn't start decling rapidly untill the end of the Fourth Age and they prospered initially. Then again things are panning out differently here.

In RTW pop growth rates are not exactly fine-grained. Settlement max pop levels change in steps of 1500, which is quite huge for Elves/Dwarves. So, if we make a settlement's population decrease by 0.5 percent per turn , and it starts at 1300, it won't stop decreasing until it hits 400. If it starts at 1550, it will stop decreasing at 1500. There's no way to have something in-between or a smaller decrease rate. Population is generally a very difficult issue, which I'm still working on.

The main difference between Elves and Dwarves is the higher initial Dwarven population and the fact that Dwarrowdelf does have potential for another 1500 population compared to the other settlements, so Dwarves can theoretically regenerate their population (very slowly).

The main problem for Elves and Dwarves will actually be their low native population. Expansion isn't easy either. Money isn't that much a problem, though you're not going to be swimming in it (well, Dwarves might, slightly).

Not related to the topic, but I don't want to start spamming one question threads.
Is it known what unit size the mod will be balenced for?

Large, I'd say.

[Cinuz]

Uhm...if you're using the Alex.exe, then the "immortal" trait could be given at least to the elves... :s

[Aradan]

Sure, but we're not using Alex.

[Themea]

Sure, but we're not using Alex.

Would it not be possible to see what alex does to the core game and effect that specific change? Or would that be too difficult/complicated a process for a rather simple problem?

[Aradan]

Would it not be possible to see what alex does to the core game and effect that specific change? Or would that be too difficult/complicated a process for a rather simple problem?

Nope, the code for immortality is included in Alex's .exe, so we can't just copy it and paste it in BI or somehow simulate it.

[Themea]

Nope, the code for immortality is included in Alex's .exe, so we can't just copy it and paste it in BI or somehow simulate it.

Bummer.

Though one way to get around the pop thing, since the game doesn't have different species, one could train a human unit off somewhere and decom them in an elven town therefore they get pop and one can get more elf units.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Aradan, stop talking! You're hyping me up way too much for the new release

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Submods can always be made.

[Thangaror]

Did I understand correctly that even if you train a unit in a town, the number of citizens will not be restored?! So, basically I could bleed an settlement out to 400 inhabitants (or whatever is the point when you're told that the settlement is too small to recruit any unit there).

It feels right lore-wise, but isn't this somewhat excessive?