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  1. #1
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default My moral cesspit

    This goes back about 20 years, but it's something that's really been bothering me of late, to the point where I have nightmares.

    It's 1991, right after the Gulf War. I'm 19. A Marine in Northern Iraq. We are on an operation called Provide Comfort. We were sent in after the US backed out of a deal with the Kurds in which the US would provide air support if the Kurds would rebel against Saddam. The Kurds get thrashed badly, and flee their homes for the mountains. They are dying at some ridiculous rate of exposure and famine. We are supposed to establish a security triangle in Northern Iraq to prevent the Iraqis from slinging out some more genocide on these poor bastards.

    It's about the 4th or 5th day of the operation and my platoon gets sent to secure a hospital. It's one of the 3 or 4 buildings left standing in this town. Everything else is rubble, and there is no power or water. We set up in the courtyard of the hospital, and then try to figure out exactly what it is we are there to secure. Turns out that every morning, a crowd forms at the gate, mostly women and children. They, of course, seek medical attention. There is only one Iraqi doctor for this hospital, and he only comes in for 3 hours a day, if at all. There's a Dutch medical team, 5 Canadian doctors, a handfull of US doctors (both civilian and military) and a bunch of medics and corpsman. The Kurds are only allowed to enter the hospital during the hours that the doctor is there. The coalition doctors and medics are forbidden from treating or rendering any assistance to any persons without the Iraqi doctor there.

    Blackhawks start flying in every few hours, bringing in extreme cases of the elderly and children who have succumbed to exposure to the elements and starvation. Mostly we take them off the helicopter, find a place in the halls for the ones still alive, and put the dead in the morgue. I was a radio operator, so every few hours I went to the roof to tend to the antenna. I had to walk passed the dead and the dying, hoping they wouldn't put their hands out. Mostly they didn't.

    On the second day, we had to put a detail on the gate. 5 or 6 guys had to stand at the gate and keep these people outside. They weren't loud. They weren't disorderly. Mostly they just stood there. Every once in a while, a kid would cry, or a woman would say something. We took turns.

    My turn at the gate. I get the middle, right where the two halves of the gate meet. About 30 minutes after sunup, the crowd just kind of appears. Right in front of me is a young mother. She has a baby on her hip. Her baby has a tumor on his forehead that's about the size of both my fists. You can see all the blue blood vessels around it through the skin. He shakes every once in a while, like he's having fits. He drools a lot, and has a hard time focusing on anything. He rarely cries. You can see he's badly underfed, like the rest of them.
    The mother just stands there, all day. She's dressed in robes, but no burqa. She just stands there, looking at me. The doctor shows up, and lets 3 people in, then we have to close the gates. The first sign of emotion from her, she cries for a minute. Then she stops crying, and goes back to staring at me. About midday, the crowd heads for the shade for lunch, but not her. I get a meal break, and when I go back to the gate, I try to get a different spot. But the guy who relieved me is senior, and makes me swap. So now I'm face to face with her again. For the rest of the day, until sundown. She's the last one to leave. When she walks away, she makes the kind of face a person makes when they are telling you it's ok, they forgive you. She came back every morning we were there, and stayed until dark. When we left, she still hadn't gotten inside the hospital.


    How does a person who believes in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness reconcile what he believes with an action like that. How do I drive her eyes out of my friggin brain. How do you reconcile denying the most basic of human needs to those who are most needy?
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

  2. #2

    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Wow is all I can. That's really intense and you personally did not deny anyone the most basic of human needs to those who needed them. As a marine, you did as you were ordered and nothing more. You saw the world for what it really was outside a relatively stable and domestically hospitable America into the majority third-world. If you still question yourself, don't. There was nothing that you could have done for her or anyone of the refugees, and only hope that the young girl who stared into you and her child are alive today. Remember that when she last looked at you, she could not communicate to you because of language differences and probably couldn't have uttered a word because of her sorrow, but she with her eyes, told you that you were a good man on the inside who recognized and didn't ignore the suffering around you, despite that she already knew you must have had a better upbringing than what she was going through.

    Just remember bro, she recognized you as a good man and you didn't fail to provide the needy anything; that responsibility fell unto deaf ears on others

  3. #3
    Tuor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Basically, what the guy above said. You were in a position where you really couldn't have helped her. You did your job, and it's not your fault that she and her baby were not provided for. Personally, I wouldn't dwell on those that weren't able to get help, but instead focus on the ones that were helped during your stay there.

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    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    I think you misunderstand. It's not about guilt. I've rationalized this probably 20,000 times. Exactly the same way. This isn't about the unethical behavior that was forced on some grunt and some poor woman in a war. I bear no personal responsibility for what happened to her, or to the other Kurds. My part in my countries behavior in this instance was clean, even though the acts that caused me to be there were wrong.

    It's about the morality. I committed an immoral act (albiet against my own judgement). The problem is compounded because I was morally obligated to do so by my vow to obey all orders. I don't believe that I get a free pass because I was following orders though. The moral highground in that situation would have been to protest or disobey, even though that itself would have been immoral. I didn't give up my free will by signing a contract and swearing an oath. I agreed to follow a certain code of behavior. The only caveat is that the orders given have to be legal, which these were.

    It wasn't my actions that were immoral, it was my inaction.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

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    Tuor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    I think you misunderstand. It's not about guilt. I've rationalized this probably 20,000 times. Exactly the same way. This isn't about the unethical behavior that was forced on some grunt and some poor woman in a war. I bear no personal responsibility for what happened to her, or to the other Kurds. My part in my countries behavior in this instance was clean, even though the acts that caused me to be there were wrong.

    It's about the morality. I committed an immoral act (albiet against my own judgement). The problem is compounded because I was morally obligated to do so by my vow to obey all orders. I don't believe that I get a free pass because I was following orders though. The moral highground in that situation would have been to protest or disobey, even though that itself would have been immoral. I didn't give up my free will by signing a contract and swearing an oath. I agreed to follow a certain code of behavior. The only caveat is that the orders given have to be legal, which these were.

    It wasn't my actions that were immoral, it was my inaction.
    In that case, what could you have done? What action could you have taken that would have somehow satiated this moral value of yours? I can't see any other realistic option you could have taken here, other than inaction, with the information given.

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    Vizsla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    It's about the morality. I committed an immoral act (albiet against my own judgement). The problem is compounded because I was morally obligated to do so by my vow to obey all orders. I don't believe that I get a free pass because I was following orders though. The moral highground in that situation would have been to protest or disobey, even though that itself would have been immoral. I didn't give up my free will by signing a contract and swearing an oath. I agreed to follow a certain code of behavior. The only caveat is that the orders given have to be legal, which these were.

    It wasn't my actions that were immoral, it was my inaction.
    You’re a good person. Being a decent person is usually as much as any of us can do. The very fact that this bothers you after 20 years is evidence that your morality has not been corrupted by the stinking morass we live in. Don’t worry about it. Or try not to.

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    manofarms89's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    I think you misunderstand. It's not about guilt. I've rationalized this probably 20,000 times. Exactly the same way. This isn't about the unethical behavior that was forced on some grunt and some poor woman in a war. I bear no personal responsibility for what happened to her, or to the other Kurds. My part in my countries behavior in this instance was clean, even though the acts that caused me to be there were wrong.

    It's about the morality. I committed an immoral act (albiet against my own judgement). The problem is compounded because I was morally obligated to do so by my vow to obey all orders. I don't believe that I get a free pass because I was following orders though. The moral highground in that situation would have been to protest or disobey, even though that itself would have been immoral. I didn't give up my free will by signing a contract and swearing an oath. I agreed to follow a certain code of behavior. The only caveat is that the orders given have to be legal, which these were.

    It wasn't my actions that were immoral, it was my inaction.
    Do you regret your inaction? If you could, would you go back and help her?

  8. #8
    black-dragon's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    There was no hard and fast 'right' course of action. It was a conflict between moral values, so any action would have compromised some moral principle. In a situation like that, I think the best you could have done is choose which is more important to you; your compassion or your word of honour. In decisions like that, I think the moral course of action would be the one that is least immoral. I couldn't consider something to be immoral if it was unavoidable. There's little emotional satisfaction in that answer, but I don't think that any other answer ciuld do much better.
    'If there is an ultimate meaning to existence, as I believe is the case, the answer is to be found within nature, not beyond it. The universe might indeed be a fix, but if so, it has fixed itself.' - Paul Davies, the guy that religious apologists always take out of context.

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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    How does a person who believes in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness reconcile what he believes with an action like that. How do I drive her eyes out of my friggin brain. How do you reconcile denying the most basic of human needs to those who are most needy?
    I can understand why you would feel bad about that. But it wasn't your place to do anything differently.

    It's not up to you to, the USMC or the US government to right every wrong on this planet. The US government could do nothing else, night and day, spend every resource it had treating people with illnesses. I understand why you are feeling like this, and in my own line of work similar moral dilemmas come up. But all you can do is your job for the greater good, and act in good conscience. Its not your fault that Saddam spent his money on palaces instead of hospitals. The hospital budget got the biggest boost ever when the US took over Iraq in Gulf War II.

    Letting go and realising you can only control you, and then only sometimes is very hard.
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Jumped to the end to see if it was a Bel Air post.

  11. #11
    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    That's a good point.

    Jumped to the end to see if it was a Bel Air post.
    I know I'll reget asking, but what's a Bel Air post?
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

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    Claudius Gothicus's Avatar Petit Burgués
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    ...
    I know this won't comfort you but... the fact that you still care after 20 years shows that you are a good person and that all of those values that you previously numbered are still living and well within your soul. Sometimes(most of the time really) the social sourroundings force us to be what our ethics tell us to despise and the only thing we can do is not forget, it's the only way those morals will live on.

    What I don't get is why did the Kurds have to wait for that Iraqi doctor? what kind of humanitarian policy is that
    Last edited by Claudius Gothicus; March 22, 2011 at 10:03 AM.

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    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    What I don't get is why did the Kurds have to wait for that Iraqi doctor? what kind of humanitarian policy is that
    We were told that it had to do with religious issues. I think it had more to do with oppression issues.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Wow what a story, xcorps, what a story. I now feel as if her eyes are boring into my head now too.

    Look, the bottom line here is that you haven't done anything since then. (Or have you?) You could not have done anything more at the time, not without endangering more people and breaking your vows. So at that moment, you're clean both ways, not just for your actions but your inactions too. But if those eyes really drilled into your head, why didn't you train to be a doctor and join Doctors Without Borders, as people have been known to do? This incident is easily something enough to change one's whole life over, and maybe that's why you feel guilty -- not that you haven't done anything then, but that you haven't done anything since then. Well then look, you look like a man who doesn't mince words. Why not take the drastic step, travel to the Kurds, take a leave of absence from wherever it is you're at, spend the next 6 months living among them, giving your Western expertise for free, building them back up, etc. Or, since there's a US military presence in Iraq, sign up for some sort of civilian corps, and go to units stationed among the natives to help with the wounded. That is not unfeasible, and it may heal a wound that may be there for the rest of your life. You did nothing wrong, but you still can do something right.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; March 22, 2011 at 12:02 PM.


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    xcorps's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Wow what a story, xcorps, what a story. I now feel as if her eyes are boring into my head now too.

    Look, the bottom line here is that you haven't done anything since then. (Or have you?) You could not have done anything more at the time, not without endangering more people and breaking your vows. So at that moment, you're clean both ways, not just for your actions but your inactions too. But if those eyes really drilled into your head, why didn't you train to be a doctor and join Doctors Without Borders, as people have been known to do? This incident is easily something enough to change one's whole life over, and maybe that's why you feel guilty -- not that you haven't done anything then, but that you haven't done anything since then. Well then look, you look like a man who doesn't mince words. Why not take the drastic step, travel to the Kurds, take a leave of absence from wherever it is you're at, spend the next 6 months living among them, giving your Western expertise for free, building them back up, etc. Or, since there's a US military presence in Iraq, sign up for some sort of civilian corps, and go to units stationed among the natives to help with the wounded. That is not unfeasible, and it may heal a wound that may be there for the rest of your life. You did nothing wrong, but you still can do something right.
    I seriously considered it. I got info and documentation for applying for a civilian posting a few years ago, but I got married. My wife had issues of her own, and I think a long term seperation would have ended it. I do contribute to certain charities annually.

    Do you regret your inaction? If you could, would you go back and help her?
    I regret it very much. But what could I have done? Helplessness is very frustrating. I could have complained, but I would have been ignored/chastised. I could have let her in, but she would have been forced back out, and I would have been punished. I couldn't help her kid, probably nobody could. Except maybe some comfort care.
    "Every idea is an incitement. It offers itself for belief and if believed it is acted on unless some other belief outweighs it or some failure of energy stifles the movement at its birth. The only difference between the expression of an opinion and an incitement in the narrower sense is the speaker's enthusiasm for the result. Eloquence may set fire to reason." -Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    I seriously considered it. I got info and documentation for applying for a civilian posting a few years ago
    Honestly, that clears up a portion of your guilt right there. if you look at things clearly, you'll see that.


    I got married. My wife had issues of her own, and I think a long term seperation would have ended it.
    That settles it. Family is very important. I understand what you have to go through, so consider upping the ante -- consider smoothing relations with your wife via a superhuman effort, be the most agreeable person she had ever met, and once you've built enough credit (say 6 months of such behavior or so), cash in that credit and ask for her support for you take off for 2-3 months into a Kurdish village, or with the civilian corps in the military. It is quite possible that 3 or 2 months of sacrifice would be enough to ease your guilt.


    I regret it very much. But what could I have done? Helplessness is very frustrating.
    You couldn't have done anything. At worst, you could have gotten some people killed (e.g. letting the mob stream into the hospital), as well as violating your vows which would blackmark you forever. Like I said, you did nothing wrong, although you can still do something extra which is right.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; March 22, 2011 at 01:36 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
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    Tuor's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Quote Originally Posted by CamilleBonparte View Post
    I think it's interesting how the atheists provide their apathetic world view in which there are no rights and wrong and there's "nothing you could have done" and how you should forget about it entirely, while Signifer as a Christian gets to the root of the issue, and actually works through the moral dilemma with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    You couldn't have done anything. At worst, you could have gotten some people killed (e.g. letting the mob stream into the hospital), as well as violating your vows which would blackmark you forever. Like I said, you did nothing wrong, although you can still do something extra which is right.
    I think the bold pretty much clears up the discrepancy there. I'm pretty sure none of us atheists tried to tell him that he should forget all about it, either.

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    manofarms89's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Quote Originally Posted by xcorps View Post
    I regret it very much. But what could I have done? Helplessness is very frustrating. I could have complained, but I would have been ignored/chastised. I could have let her in, but she would have been forced back out, and I would have been punished. I couldn't help her kid, probably nobody could. Except maybe some comfort care.
    The way I see it, then is you knew that you couldn't help her, but you wish you at least tried. But who knows? Maybe your attempt to help her would have compromised the security of the hospital? Maybe the hospital didn't have facilities to treat the child's tumor? The way I see it, the powers at be are more to blame than you, they actually had the power to help, you didn't.

  19. #19
    CamilleBonparte's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Given light of the fact that you DID try to do the right thing (following your service trying to insert yourself back into their nightmare in a constructive role) rather than being apathetic, and had legitimate and sincere intentions of righting the wrong (whether they were technically your fault or not, you as a person of strong character and morals feel there was a wrong), compounded with the obligations you now have as a family man, I don't feel you acted immorally. I think it's important that you feel regret rather than taking an apathetic "Couldn't have done anything, not my problem" stance that most people would take, and are now here baring a part of your soul because you can't and won't let go. I don't think you should have done anything in that situation other than what you did because you simply don't know what the consequences would have been for the people you might have tried to help with good intentions, or for yourself. But like Sig said, it's important that you tried to do something extra.
    Last edited by Ciabhán; March 23, 2011 at 12:08 AM. Reason: This isn't the thread for that kind of thing
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: My moral cesspit

    Have you spoken to a counsiller they can help with these things.Its not good for you if its at the back of your mind hidden away.And you have nitemares.All the best

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