Roman first name issue

[postm00v]

Hello my fellow forum readers/lurkers,

in my current campaign as the romans I noticed something annoying.
The year is 244 BC and a new generation of cannon fodd ... I mean generals is coming of age.

I would've imagined the citizens and people of Rome to have a little more imagination, because it seems a lot of fathers name their sons exactly the same.

For example; Cnaeus Cornelius Blasio had 3 sons, one of which he named .. yes .. Cnaeus Cornelius Blasio.

Even more frustrating are his brothers in-law, Caius Aurelius Cotta and Lucius Cornelius Scipio.
Cotta named his first-born and his third son Titus and Scipio named two of his sons Numerius.
Can you imagine his poor wife trying to raise these children of Rome ?!

Titus ! Stop hitting Titus ! Sit up straight Titus !


Normally this wouldn't be so much of a problem, but as it happens I am making sort of a kill sheet which also includes the political career of each family member.
In my attempt to distinguish these guys, I used Roman numerals which probably isn't historical correct.

Now after all this useless information, I also have three somewhat related questions.

- Can I add Roman first names, so they don't use the same name over and over ?
- How did the ancient Romans handle this ?
- When is EBII coming out ?

Okay, I will admit, that third question was just me trolling.

Thanks in advance !

- postm00v

[Entropy Judge]

- Can I add Roman first names, so they don't use the same name over and over ?

I'm pretty sure this is a yes, although I'm not sure if/how it's save-game compatible. There's a descr_names text file in the EB Data folder that lists all the available names.

- How did the ancient Romans handle this ?

Agnomens were one way; another (IIRC) was that they used numbers as names (Tertius et al - although I seem to remember that this was more common for girls than for boys). However ... Marcus Junius Brutus (the guy who's best-known for helping kill Julius Caesar) shared the same name with his father, and they were distinguished by being the Younger and Elder. For more famous Brutuses, we have this interesting lineup: Marcus Junius Brutus (not the same guy as either of the above-mentioned MJBs) had two sons, one named Marcus Junius Brutus and the other named Decimus Junius Brutus, who later received the Agnomen of "Callaicus." Decimus had a son named Decimus Junius Brutus, who had a son named Decimus Junius Brutus and later received the Agnomen "Albinus."

The praenomen, equivalent to given names nowadays, was chosen by the parents (often with the pater familias naming male infants after himself). There was, however, a very limited selection of praenomina, such as Gaius, Gnaeus, Marcus, Quintus, Publius, Tiberius, and Titus. As a result, men from a given family often have identical names for generations. It was therefore necessary to use other names (cognomen and later, agnomen) to distinguish between individuals. Only intimates would use the praenomen.

[postm00v]

I had a look through the file and noticed that a lot of names are re-used.
I.E. AvlvsA, AvlvsB, AvlvsC and so on, why is that ?

Also, I will have to give you a +rep for all the times you helped me with all my questions.
Thanks !

[Entropy Judge]

AFAIK they're to distinguish between the different characters with that name - all Romans have the same Surname (Romanvs), so if you have, say, and Asio Scipio Asina and Asio Scipio Pavlvs, one might be AsioA and the other AsioC.

[XSamatan]

The Romans (and some other factions too) have their naming system realized through traits, the naming system from RTW is not able to display names historical accurate therefore the team had to go this way.
Finding the right internal name (=the name used in the text files) can become difficult, maybe this can help you:Guide: How to use 'move_character' in EB

XSamatan

[Atilius]

The Romans had very few different first names (which they called praenomina). We've used all the praenomina borne by Roman consuls (17 if I remember correctly) from the start of our time period to about 30 BC.

How did the ancient Romans handle this ?

A roman man was most commonly given the same praenomen as his father, though he was sometimes named for a paternal uncle. As a consequence, the number of different names occurring in a single family was even more restricted. As an extreme example of this phenomenon consider this branch of the Claudius Marcellus family, all of whom were named Marcus for at least nine generations:

(1) M. Claudius Marcellus, c. 331
(2) M. Claudius Marcellus, c. 287
(3) M. Claudius Marcellus,
(4) M. Claudius Marcellus, c. 222 and 4 more times
(5) M. Claudius Marcellus, c. 196
(6) M. Claudius Marcellus, c. 166 and 2 more times
(7) M. Claudius Marcellus,
(8) M. Claudius Marcellus, curule aedile 91
(9) M. Claudius Marcellus, c. 51

And just to drive home the point, the second son of #4 (brother of #5) was also named Marcus.

[postm00v]

No wonder that the empire collapsed eventually !
I bet it was a pain in the *** to explain just which Marcus Claudius Marcellus you were

I wonder why they didn't just pick other names, but I guess that it was a tradition/honor to name the son the same as the father.

In my game I just had the Polybian Reforms for the first time since I've been playing EB !
Quite proud of that

[mamik_yev_konak]

Gaius Iulius Caesar used to be named Octavian used to be Octavius. Adoptive father: Gaius Iulius Caesar. Father of adoptive father: Gaius Iulius Caesar.

[postm00v]

Gaius Iulius Caesar used to be named Octavian used to be Octavius. Adoptive father: Gaius Iulius Caesar. Father of adoptive father: Gaius Iulius Caesar.

Gaius Iulius Caesar and Octavian are two different people, Octavian is Caesar's nephew.
When Caesar adopted Octavian he used the cognomen 'Caesar'.
Even later he became Augustus Caesar. ( the first Roman Emperor )

And I always thought Octavian was the english version of his name. (?)

[Perdikkas]

Gaius Iulius Caesar and Octavian are two different people, Octavian is Caesar's nephew.
When Caesar adopted Octavian he used the cognomen 'Caesar'.
Even later he became Augustus Caesar. ( the first Roman Emperor )

And I always thought Octavian was the english version of his name. (?)

to expand on this:

romans took adoption very seriously. it was uncommon to adopt infants. the usual practice was to adopt early teens. many aristocratic families kept their names going through adoption for generations.

many noble families were great but actually poor or in debt and extra sons were quickly adopted out.

when a son was adopted, they believed they fully embodied the traits and history of their new families.

when octavian was adopted, he fully became Caesar's son and his new name was "Caivs Iulivs Caesar Octavianus"
one little issue with Octavianus was that adoption was rarely postumous, so his adoption was unorthodox.

another side note: the patrician Clodius convinced the pontifex maximus Caesar to allow him to be adopted into a plebian family so Clodius could stand for tribune. at this time Clodius was in his late 20's or early 30's and his new adoptive father was younger (or similar age). scandalous.

[postm00v]

another side note: the patrician Clodius convinced the pontifex maximus Caesar to allow him to be adopted into a plebian family so Clodius could stand for tribune. at this time Clodius was in his late 20's or early 30's and his new adoptive father was younger (or similar age). scandalous.

HA ! Never knew about this.
As you say, quite scandalous if you think about it.

But I guess in those days it wasn't a big deal that the official father was younger than his son.


Imagine this happening now !

it is common to call him Octavius when referring to events between 63 and 44 BC, Octavian (or Octavianus) when referring to events between 44 and 27 BC, and Augustus when referring to events after 27 BC.

So what exactly makes it so much of a difference to be called Octavian/Octavianus or Octavius ?
Or has it something to do with starting his own 'house' with its own gens ?

[Entropy Judge]

So what exactly makes it so much of a difference to be called Octavian/Octavianus or Octavius ?
Or has it something to do with starting his own 'house' with its own gens ?

Yes; AFAI can tell, "Octavius" would mean something like "In/Of the Gens Octavia" while "Octavian/us" would mean something like "From the Gens Octavia." The first is an indicator of what family he is, the latter an indicator that he's from that family by blood despite being adopted into another family.

[Perdikkas]

HA ! Never knew about this.
As you say, quite scandalous if you think about it.

But I guess in those days it wasn't a big deal that the official father was younger than his son.


Imagine this happening now !




So what exactly makes it so much of a difference to be called Octavian/Octavianus or Octavius ?
Or has it something to do with starting his own 'house' with its own gens ?

Caivs Octavius was the natural born son
Caivs Iulivs Caesar Octavianus for when he was adopted.

so short version of his name:
Pre-adoption Octaivius
Post-adoption Octavianus or the english version Octavian

[mamik_yev_konak]

Gaius Iulius Caesar and Octavian are two different people, Octavian is Caesar's nephew.
When Caesar adopted Octavian he used the cognomen 'Caesar'.
Even later he became Augustus Caesar. ( the first Roman Emperor )

And I always thought Octavian was the english version of his name. (?)

Yeah. Did you read my post?

Octavian's "last name" was after where his family came from, but everything changes after the adoption and name change. The name becomes identical to GJC and GJC. Aug. is the honorary name assignment you see later (3rd dec. BCE if I'm not mistaken). E'eryone I know and I just call him Aug., cause then we know we be talking about the same person.

[torongill]

If you think about it, there weren't so many people around. the agnomen and the gens were much more important - men associated themselves with their clan and family much more than with their given names, which were used in only the most informal surroundings - your parents could call you by your given name, your spouse probably, as well as your closest friends. to the rest you were known generally by your nomen(gens, clan name, like Claudius or Julius) and cognomen, if you had one. cognomen most of the times were nicknames, which became hereditary.
IIRC plebeans didn't have nomen for a very long time. Probably they used their occupation and/or place of residence as a form of identification. Like Titus the grocer from the Aventine.

[Entropy Judge]

Wikipedia:

Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus (23 September 63 BC – 19 August AD 14) is considered the first emperor of the Roman Empire, which he ruled alone from 27 BC until his death in AD 14.[note 1] Born Gaius Octavius Thurinus, he was adopted posthumously by his great-uncle Gaius Julius Caesar in 44 BC via his last will and testament, and between then and 27 BC was officially named Gaius Julius Caesar. In 27 BC the Senate awarded him the honorific Augustus ("the revered one"), and thus consequently he was Gaius Julius Caesar Augustus.[note 2] Because of the various names he bore, it is common to call him Octavius when referring to events between 63 and 44 BC, Octavian (or Octavianus) when referring to events between 44 and 27 BC, and Augustus when referring to events after 27 BC.

Edit: He should have had "Octavian/Octavianus" post-adoption to signify that he was from the gens Octavia, but he appears to have skipped that step, at least officially.