Armour piercing swords

[part_time_player]

Hi, I noticed that Knights have the AP attribute on both their primary AND secondary weapon, whereas in vanilla I think their secondary weapon (sword) was not normally AP. I wondered if this was deliberate. It particularly came to my attention comparing Feudal and English Knights. The stats of these 2 units are very similar but English knights are more expensive, in vanilla this was somewhat justified by the english knights secondary weapon being an AP axe as opposed to the Feudal Knight's non-AP sword but now this advantage is lost and Feudal knights seem much better value for money.

[medievaldude]

yeah but theoretically or realistically a sword is armour piercing, though i miss ap for axes only

[part_time_player]

I'm not a historian but I believe swords versus plate armour became more of a bludgeoning weapon? Anyway I figured this was done more for gameplay reasons.

[A_Dane]

Swords arn't really the best bludgeoning weapon s: .. I have to admit that giving swords the AP attribute strikes me as being a little odd. It kinda removes the whole point of moving on to different sorts of polearms to deal with heavily armored knights?

Could be an oversight though?

EDIT: Just saw this:

yeah but theoretically or realistically a sword is armour piercing, though i miss ap for axes only

Perhaps, but not nearly as effective as a good axe/polearm. This will not be represented correctly if swords gets the AP attribute. Especially not with the feudal knight unit...

[shikaka]

I'm not a historian but I believe swords versus plate armour became more of a bludgeoning weapon? Anyway I figured this was done more for gameplay reasons.

Plate armor was not really common. In the game that is maybe the last scenario.

[VINC.XXIII]

"good axe/polearm."
you're right
btw, I mix hammers/maces/axes and bastard swords for my new models of Late Knights. 1/3 knight only have the bast.sword, averagely. Sometimes there are more swords or more strict piercing small weapons.
Those small weapons were very proper to explode the bones under the plates, or simply to pierce the plate and attain the flesh
as well:

credits in my betaprev'

[A_Dane]

Oh I've got no problem with a unit with swords having armour piercing as such, the problem is that giving a unit consisting solely, or mostly, of swords (like the feudal knights unless I'm missing something) the attribute, you'll sadly render the axe/polearm units kinda useless, as their role can be fulfilled by the swordsmen :/

But that looks nice, love variety within one unit, and it fits better IMO, than having 1 unit with the exact same weapon

[VINC.XXIII]

delete

[AnthoniusII]

In theory every pointy weapon can penetrate an armor.
But we read in Battle of Sirmion description:
"...he ordered his infantry lines to engage te Hungarian and Austrian knights and not allow them to regroup. For much time knights and infantry fought eachother with minimum casualties. Armors seamed imnume to swords for both sides. Then the solution came from the axes of the Varangians and the maces of the Archontopulla that smached their opponets heads,arms and legs!
Battle was lost for Hungarians that turned and run leaving the battlefield to the Romans"...
So we learn from this description.
1st: In 1186 (battle of Sirmion) most knights still used long swords.
2nd: Heavy chain mails for both sides (knights and byzantino/serbian infantry) gave enough protection against swords espesialy in very close distances that forced the warriors to use the swords as blunt weapons.
3rd: The large axes of the Varangians and the maces of Archontopulla (cataphract style cavalry) could not penetrate the armors but could smash everything under those armors!

[VINC.XXIII]

"In theory every pointya weapon can penetrate an armor."
I spoken only about the plate.(full white harness as in the pic)
Some french passioned of medieval reconstitution tested to pierce one gothic armor with the 15th century's small axe...they succedeed.
this style was upper used, the gothic small axe look as the pic you showed in the BC's forum, some days ago.
http://getasword.com/777-medieval-ax...ing-blade.html

[AnthoniusII]

Νice picture.
Byzantines were few centuries forward to this.
We read in Tactica of Leon VI the wise .
"When you construct you axes (tzikouria) make sure that the have two parts.
One as a blade and one as as spearhead to penetrate the armors".
Byzantines had two versions of it.
1:


2:


Does the 2nd axe reminds you a haldberg?
Yes it started as a long axe that infact was adopted in huge numbers by Italians in the 9th century and used for long time.

CREDITS
Lord Calidor for his CBUR exclusive weapon pack.

[VINC.XXIII]

"Lord Calidor for his CBUR exclusive weapon pack."

ah...I want this exclusive pack!!!

[SicilianVespers]

I am really liking that axe

[AnthoniusII]

You see what a little research can lead ?
I am fan of upsolute detail and realism!

[SicilianVespers]

You see what a little research can lead ?
I am fan of upsolute detail and realism!

I knew of this axe, I have just never seen one in-game...

I think Osprey has it in one of their Siculo-Norman pics. I actually gave the Siculo-Norman captain an axe in preparations for an axe like this, but never made on

[VINC.XXIII]

I think its easily possible to weld the axe and a very short spear.
Now I'm wondering how its possible to get the shaft curved less modelling from nothing. We have to find the perfect shaft.
Me too I knew this kind of weapon, the south french knights used it, and certainly also their militias. The reconstitution I had seen were a bit smaller about the spear side, though.

[SicilianVespers]

I have seen examples with straight spears, it wouldn't be a problem.


Lord Calidor really does great work

[AnthoniusII]

Οur Italian militias have them:


Unit still needs original textures though.