Unit Clarifications

[Hazbones]

I am working on the research for a mod and would like to ask various questions about the historical roles of each unit so that I can be clear on how they are supposed to be used. Your help in this would be appreciated. First:

No-Dachi (Odachi) Samurai
I'll start with this unit since I have read various sources which contradict what each one states is the true purpose of the No-dachi. From what I gather, the No-dachi sword had various uses and no 1 purpose is correct or incorrect. The question is, there can only be 1 purpose and so which should be used for TWS2? There are some new units that can be created to use more of the purposes of this sword as well.

(Historical) Basics:

• Long sword made with a heavy steel at great expense to make (took long time to forge)
• Longest blade of any sword
• Average samurai could not wear the sword on the hip
• Up to 18 different types of blades forged for Nodachi sword
• Samurai usually do no carry their own Nodachi since it could only be worn strapped to the back however some instances of samurai wearing a Nodachi were for showing status
• Because it is a status symbol (even used as a flag or banner in battle) the Nodachi would not be wielded by Ashigaru
• Ashigaru would accompany a samurai and carry the Nodachi for him and hold the scabbard once the sword is drawn
• No dachi armor was light to allow full range of motion

Cavalry No-Dachi:

• Cavalry used Nodachi with a blade that wasn't even sharp the whole length of the blade. Sword would be swung down upon enemy head and shoulder like a club
• Cavalry would throw the sword or "spear" an enemy upon charging into the ranks. Once the Nodachi was gone samurai cavalry would draw their katana for melee

*Unit idea: Of course we cannot have an animation throwing the Nodachi from horseback but a "Nodachi Cavalry" unit is possible with a backup weapon of Katana. Perhaps it might be possible to exchange a Yari Cav spear weapon to a Nodachi sword and have the secondary katana sword weapon?

Samurai No-Dachi:

• One purpose of the Nodachi used by foot samurai would be to throw the weapon to try hitting many enemy at one time then draw the katana to close with the enemy. This was the common purpose up until the end of the Nodachi's use on the battlefield
• Many foot samurai would take a Nodachi sword onto the battlefield as a banner or symbol thus making them strictly a "standard bearer" in battle and would not try to wield the sword in battle instead dropping the sword and drawing the katana to melee nearby enemy.
• Foot samurai would use the cavalry Nodachi or a Nodachi with a heavy tipped blade as an anti-cavalry weapon. These troops would be used to attack the legs of the horses to take down animal and rider in one swing.
• Entire units of Nodachi would not be common instead they were few in number and deployed in defense positions (even though they were offensive weapons) to counter cavalry after the charge

*Unit idea: To simulate the training of No-Dachi Samurai to combat cavalry, there could be a "[Clan Name or Location] No-Dachi". These units can only be recruited by clans that were historically known to have the capability to create large numbers of NoDachi swords or specific locations on the map with the right materials to make them (iron mines). Clans without a mine could not create these units.

*Unit idea: Historically the Nodachi unit would be small. Perhaps widen the spaces of the men in the unit and reduce the number of men to make a correct representation? Maybe make this reduced size Nodachi unit available to all clans without a mine or historically poor clans?

*Unit idea: To make the NoDachi a "standard bearer" only within a unit. Maybe increase his stats to make him last a little longer in melee as the strongest man in the unit?


The purposes I listed in bullets are actual lines I have read from various sources on the web not my view of the weapon's uses. I do not know what the Common purpose of the sword is as I stated at the top, there were many purposes and I am simply trying to narrow down the appropriate ones to represent in the game.

These unit ideas are just suggestions and I am looking for input to help me represent the Nodachi more historically accurate for my mod. Please let me know what you think of the unit ideas if they would be something you'd like to see.

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Next Unit Discussion Here: Archers
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[athanaric]

Good ideas, but do you have reliable sources for the weapon uses? I've never heard of thrown No-Dachi before.

[Hazbones]

Yes, all the purposes I stated are just what I have located online on various sites. For instance I will list some links to a few sites where I got the purposes of the sword:

Thrown weapon, dropped, or used against cavalry

And of course wiki which repeats some of what was on other pages: Worn on back, cavalry weapon, etc.

You can google the nodachi and see all the various sites with differing descriptions of the sword's purposes. Not even the sites that are selling replica swords can agree what the purpose was. I just want to incorporate all the different purposes so to correct what CA is making these units in game.

If you notice, CA's description in game is that the Nodachi samurai is poor against cavalry with no defensive bonus. That goes exactly opposite of the various site descriptions I am seeing. A Nodachi samurai wears the exact same gear as a samurai holding a yari so why the difference in stats? Which should be the correct usage of this unit?

[athanaric]

If you notice, CA's description in game is that the Nodachi samurai is poor against cavalry with no defensive bonus. That goes exactly opposite of the various site descriptions I am seeing. A Nodachi samurai wears the exact same gear as a samurai holding a yari so why the difference in stats? Which should be the correct usage of this unit?

Well logically, a sword of this kind wouldn't convey a great defensive bonus. Perhaps more so than a katana but it should be less than a spear. But maybe an offensive (i.e. attack) bonus vs cavalry is in order - seeing as two-handed swords like these seem to have been popular (among those who could afford them) as an anti-cavalry weapon. IIRC the Chinese "Zhanmadao" or whatever it was called served the same purpose.

[Hazbones]

Ok, so for Nodachi Samurai:

• defensive bonus between yari and katana
• offense bonus vs cavalry (same as yari samurai?)
• reduce unit size and increase men spacing (for general Nodachi used by all factions)
• retain current size of Nodachi unit for specific faction(s) or location(s) whomever owns that region (to represent capability to raise such large units)

*perhaps make a "standard bearer" a Nodachi within units to represent his unique status?

Nodachi Cavalry:

• arm with Nodachi sword as primary weapon with a katana as a melee weapon (ala archers that switch weapons upon contact)
• small unit for general recruiting > same size as current Nodachi Samurai except mounted for specific factions or locations

*perhaps a "standard bearer" Nodachi for cavalry units

Any other ideas before we move on to the next unit?

[Hazbones]

Ok, the next unit to clarify are the archers...

Basic History of the Yumi (bow):

• Bow was at its climax of use at the start of the 16th century but was considered obsolete by 1545 when the matchlock was brought to Japan
• Clan leaders replaced the bow with guns as quickly as they could afford. By 1575 the ratio of guns to bow was around 2:1 (or more for the rich clans up to 4:1). There are exceptions like the Korea invasion the ration was 1:1.
• Bow took many years to reach max effectiveness in shooting
• Optimal/ Effective Killing/ Max ranges were: 30meters/ 80meters/ 380meters
• Bow was one of the primary weapons of the samurai in the early 16th century. By mid century when ashigaru were more widely used and they were considered low rank samurai, they would then be issued bows mainly to defend castles and such
• Samurai preferred to use the gun over the bow due to the innovation factor and status for shooting prowess
• Historical rolls at times bunched archers into the "other" category thus reflecting the lessening of special significance of the archer. They were simply samurai who happened to be armed with bows

*Unit Idea: Yumi Samurai or simply Samurai would be relegated to early war recruitment only. Use a certain building level to restrict recruitment and extend the amount of time to raise a unit from vanilla setting. The Yumi Samurai would have a secondary weapon of katana.

NOTE: Samurai were just expected to know how to shoot a bow. There should not be a special designation as "archers" inferring that they didn't know how to use any other weapon should there be?

NOTE: Yumi units perhaps can be made smaller from early/mid/late period to reflect the lessened reliance on them and move toward the gun?

*Unit Idea: Yumi Ronin (Ashigaru) are units for hire in various locations. Nothing special about them except they are ashigaru (not samurai) and skilled enough to use a bow but perhaps change the sidearm from katana to dagger or something. Slightly lower stats than a formal Yumi Samurai unit

*Unit Idea: Yumi Ashigaru would be a mid to late war unit with lower stats than the Yumi Samurai of course. The Yumi Ashigaru would be a last desperate measure for a clan leader to arm a garrison for castle defense. Perhaps make this unit a garrison only spawn?

NOTE: I won't add monks to this discussion because I will be making a separate mod for monks in game

NOTE: I have read in other people's threads about certain clans that were known for their archers so those specific clans might get a Yumi Samurai unit with slightly higher stats but nothing outrageous.