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Thread: Regional religion ideas

  1. #1

    Default Regional religion ideas

    "Mesopotamian", "Hittite", "Egyptian", "Median", "Israeli", "Canaanite", or in place of Canaanite, "Phonecian". And probably "Greek" if there is a Greek insurgent faction.

    Since each of those cover the main regions of the mod map and are all historically accurate, it would be the ideal template.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    A good subject to start a thread around, I've been thinking about it a bit lately and I'm happy to see more people interested. I think that you have a very good basic idea, although I personally don't agree with all the specific examples given, mostly in regards to you naming of them .

    We should remember how syncretic the ancient Near East, and polytheistic socities in general, were regarding deities and practices. For example the Hittites seems to have adopted several Near Eastern deities, the Phoenicians worshipped several Egyptian deities, and the Egyptians brought home a few deities from the Levant to worship in their own land. Therefor I think that the biggest challange would be to somehow ensure that the religious scene isn't portrayed as being as stratified as during for example during the Middle Ages. We should of course not drag this to far and start to think that they were somehow liberals promoting some kind of universal right to religion. A certain Babylonian king did for example seem to have got into trouble for neglecting Marduk on behalf of the Sumerian moon-deity Sin and the whole episode with Aten in Egypt is probably as well known as the somewhat turbulent situation in Israel and Judah regarding polytheism and monotheism, or henotheism for those who see things that way instead regarding early worship of Yahawe, to name just a few examples.

    From myself I can see several different ways to handle this in a historically somewhat correct way. Naturally we will need to take into account gameplay values and effects, but I think that we should keep it at least pseudo-historical. A small question may regard in question to "heresy" but I think that this should be kept. The prospect of heresy can easily be seen as the population which has taken to follow priests and deities not sanctified by the rulers, and therefor the rulers would need to bring these people back into observing the officially sanction priests. Its somewhat pseudo-history but I do not think that this is to much of a long-shot to be plausible.

    One way is to offer a great number of different regional religions, although this could take focus away from how syncretic these cultures generally were in regards to deities. My take on that would probably be the following:

    Hellenic
    Anatolian
    Mesopotamian
    Levantine
    Kemetian
    Yahawism
    Hurratian (I'm don't know to much regarding this part frankly )
    Iranian (I'm don't know to much regarding this part frankly )
    Heresy

    Another option is to use just one for general polytheism and then some others for more different views on the cosmology.

    Polytheism
    Yahawism
    [other potential groups who might go against the standard polytheism - like Ashurianism if you buy the idea that the Assyrians were developing into a monotheistic view rather than polytheistic]
    Heresy

    I may have refeered to Yawism somewhere as henotheistic, which is of course wrong, and I meant monolatrism.
    Last edited by Gurkhal; March 20, 2011 at 12:56 PM. Reason: Fixed and added some stuff :)

  3. #3

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    I thought about using the phrase "Levantine" however that is historically inaccurate. If you take the time to research, it will be quite obvious that half of the Levant was polytheistic with several different pantheons of gods and goddesses, and the other half was monotheistic. Therefore, "Phonecian" and "Israelite" would be a better choice. Also, there was no such
    "Yahawe" or "Yahaism" at the time, it was quite literally referred to as the "God of the Israelites", or "Israelite".

    Also, Iranian isn't historically accurate too. It's "Median", as the Persian kingdom did not exist at the time of the mod, but was part of the Median kingdom, so "Iranian" has no meaning in this time frame.
    i
    You could use "Kemetian", but it is easier for everyone to understand "Egyptian" as that has been the term since Hellenic times. If I'm not mistaken, Kush is also in this mod, and since Kemet only refers to upper and lower Egypt, "Egyptian" is a more generic term for the pantheon of the entire region.

    Also, Hellenic is a physical region and definition of a set of ideologies, but not the actual Greek religion itself. "Hellenic" didn't come to be used outside of Greece until later on, towards the end of the Persian Empire. Even people in that time frame did not refer to it as "Hellenic", but rather "Ionian" or "Greek".

  4. #4

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    I thought about using the phrase "Levantine" however that is historically inaccurate. If you take the time to research, it will be quite obvious that half of the Levant was polytheistic with several different pantheons of gods and goddesses, and the other half was monotheistic. Therefore, "Phonecian" and "Israelite" would be a better choice. Also, there was no such
    "Yahawe" or "Yahaism" at the time, it was quite literally referred to as the "God of the Israelites", or "Israelite".
    Actually no, for one reason that there was no such thing as "Phoenician" at the time, but that is rather outsiders view of it. The people that we call the Phoenicians never regarded themselves as more than simply the citizens of a certain city. The reason to use "Levantine" is to show the similar practices and somewhat similar pantheon that was used in that general area. You are absolutely right about the fact that there were alot of variations and differences in the polytheistic tradition, however they still seems to have kept some similar ideas. I of course understand that there will not be entirely correct, but I think that it would be somewhat correct at the least.

    I also highly doubt that half of the Levant was monotheistic, and I'm not even sure when the worship of Yahawe became monotheistic as opposed to monotrialistic (I hope I got this word right). There is also, as far as I can tell, a constant polytheistic presence in the ancient Israel and therefor I do not really see the problem of calling the singular worship of Yahawe as Yahawism. The term may be modern, but so is also the term "religion" since there was no seperation between the religious and non-religious parts of life at that time.

    Also, Iranian isn't historically accurate too. It's "Median", as the Persian kingdom did not exist at the time of the mod, but was part of the Median kingdom, so "Iranian" has no meaning in this time frame.
    I was more thinking about it in a geographic way to designate the traditions of that area of the world. But then again I'm not researching much into that part.

    You could use "Kemetian", but it is easier for everyone to understand "Egyptian" as that has been the term since Hellenic times. If I'm not mistaken, Kush is also in this mod, and since Kemet only refers to upper and lower Egypt, "Egyptian" is a more generic term for the pantheon of the entire region.
    Yes, Egyptian would probably be easier to understand but Kemetian, or the correct Egyptian word with correct grammer as I would love to get all the terminology, or as much as possible, in the historical languages . But I will grant you that while the other words are not used from historical languages "Egyptian" may be a better pick.

    Also, Hellenic is a physical region and definition of a set of ideologies, but not the actual Greek religion itself. "Hellenic" didn't come to be used outside of Greece until later on, towards the end of the Persian Empire. Even people in that time frame did not refer to it as "Hellenic", but rather "Ionian" or "Greek".
    Like in the part about Iranian religion it was mostly to designate the certain traditions of that area. If "Greek" does the job better that's all fine with me.

  5. #5
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    If there will be religions (not cultures) I think there should be a 'religious tolerance' included (for Phoenicia).

  6. #6

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Agreed, although I'm not sure it was a specific Phoenician trait. To my understanding, although I may of course be wrong, most of the polytheists were pretty tolerant of each other's deities.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Just to see if there can be some more life in this thread I thought that I would take it in a new direction. The following technical areas I am talking about goes far over my head and I am very likly to have some unreasonable ideas regarding what can be done and not. But I hope that this may at the least spark some interesting discussion.

    In order to capture the polytheistic religious outlook of the Near East I thought that I would throw out a brainstormed idea that I've been playing with. The idea is that instead of using the normal structures of shrine/temple to god X in a number of examples, like they did in Rome: Total War, for instance, we could build a more generic temple structure, and add buildings that represent the introduction of cults into the temple, which won't show up on the city-map itself but will be buildings still present. Using this should also, i hope at least but that may be a question more for the future coders to decide , include also minor and local deities who may not be represented with a temple typ for themselves in a larger sense.

    The idea would work out something like this in practice.

    Province of Lebanon Mountains has an altar, and when the Phoenicians captures it, they see there is also a cult image of Baal Lebanon, who is a local deity in the provice and the specific building with Baal Lebanon isn't found anywhere else. The Phoenicians can then build some of their altars to introduce some new cults in the province, say three per province, and they then build the buildings for the cults of Melqart and Astarte. Naturally these should be possible to enlarge, just as the temple itself could be made larger and be given more upgrades.

    This should mean that there are a temple structure, and three lesser buildings connected to it - altar to Baal Lebanon, Melqart and Astarte. So instead of only having one god worshipped in each city it would be possible to have three, and hopefully without having to go around with hardcoded stuff and so. Naturally each of the "altars" dedicated to a deity will be less powerful than in most other mods. If possible it would be great if also the "altars" to smaller deities could be upgraded even if they stayed local phenomonen that didn't spread their cults outisde of the province where they were found

    In fact I could see this as a potential engine to use for a building tree: a relatively small number of basic buildsings that serves a few needs, like say:

    Armory
    Workshop Quarters
    Temple
    Palace
    Harbor
    Residantial Infrastructure
    Agriculture
    Raw resource Exploitation

    And each of these would have several addons that can be built for additional effects, but probably without making a "look" on the map where battles would be played. I could see a possible advantage in this due to the fact that it might require less work with making building models for use inside these named maps.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    The religion of the Persians until the muslim conquest was the Zoroastrianism, and had became the official religion of the Persian Empire from 6th century BC.

    The Zoroastrianism was founded around 1000 BC. In the Zoroastrian religion there are tow gods, Ahura Mazda (The good god) and Angra Mainyu (The evil god).
    More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism

  9. #9

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Because I'm bored I decieded to write up a short list with deities for each faction in the southern Levant. But for factions already put into the mod and for some who may become a reality in the future, but arn't in right now. Won't go into the Aramaic or neo-Hittite kingdoms as a I don't know enough of them yet.

    Availible to all Levant factions: Baal/Hadad, Astarte/Asherah (just one of these depending on local tradition), Baalim

    Philistines: Dagon, Potnia (could possible be counted as a local...)
    Moab: Kemosh, Ashtar-Kemosh
    Ammon: Milcom, Moloch
    Israel: Yahawe, Host of Heaven
    Judah: Yahawe, Sapash
    Phoenicians: Melqart, Eshmun

    Mesopotamia: for Mesopotamian factions, if further ones are added except Babylon and Assyria I suggest the use of Ishtar, Nabu and Shamash as a basis for the deities availible to them. And thus these three would be availible to Assyria and Babylon as well, of course.

    Babylon: Marduk, Sin, Adad
    Assyria: Ashur, Ninurta

    Some local deities:
    Baal Zebul (Ekron)
    Baal Peor (Mt. Peor)
    Baal Berith (Sechem)
    Baalat Gubal (Byblos)
    Baalat (Berytos)
    Baal Shamem (Byblos)
    Baal Saphon (Mt. Saphon)
    Nehushtan (Jerusalem)
    Baal Lebanon (the Lebanon Mountains)
    Nergal (Kutha)
    Ea (Eridu)
    Gula (Isin)
    Urash (Dilbat)
    Ningirsu (Girsu)
    Ellil (Nippur)

    Its of course a bit difficult to add local deities without having a complete list of what regions and cities are on the map, but I'll do as best as I can - if for no other reason than entertainment

    EDITED: "Host of Heaven" which is a fill in for a more generic worship of certain deities connected with celestial bodies. Added the stuff about Mesopotamia.
    Last edited by Gurkhal; May 27, 2011 at 06:23 PM. Reason: Added some stuff

  10. #10

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Who is Sapash? I can't say I'm familiar with that one. Also, interesting that you include the Nehushtan. It's historical even if it was only worshiped for a limited time before being destroyed by Hezekiah. To be honest though, it seems it could be rolled into a Canaanite or Phoenician religion and not cause any problems.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    As far as I figured Sapashu (I misspelled the first time) was the Ugaritic sun goddess, and since there are some references to worship of the sun being condemned in the Old Testament (I normally don't like to use writen sources but when there isn't enough archeological sources around...) I figured that she could be used. It isn't mentioned what solar deity the worship was directed towards so it could of course be wrong, and it is of course entirely possible that she had fallen out of use by this time. Thus I am entirely open for using another solar deity, or an entirely different polytheistic deity except Baal and Astarte or Asherah for Judah.

    In regards to Nehushtan I was under the impression that it was said that it had been worshipped ever since it was supposedly made. I could be wrong and I'll try to look it up. Anyway I think that there should be the oppertunity for both Yahawism and Baalism, if I may use these terms, for both Israel and Judah. Hence the player can choose if he wants to go monotheistic or polytheistic and so destroy or keep Nehushtan according to taste.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkhal View Post
    As far as I figured Sapashu (I misspelled the first time) was the Ugaritic sun goddess, and since there are some references to worship of the sun being condemned in the Old Testament (I normally don't like to use writen sources but when there isn't enough archeological sources around...) I figured that she could be used. It isn't mentioned what solar deity the worship was directed towards so it could of course be wrong, and it is of course entirely possible that she had fallen out of use by this time. Thus I am entirely open for using another solar deity, or an entirely different polytheistic deity except Baal and Astarte or Asherah for Judah.
    I honestly have no idea on this one. I'm thinking this is one area where less may be more though. If we get too specific with religions then it's going to be a pain for both players and coders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkhal View Post
    In regards to Nehushtan I was under the impression that it was said that it had been worshiped ever since it was supposedly made. I could be wrong and I'll try to look it up. Anyway I think that there should be the opportunity for both Yahawism and Baalism, if I may use these terms, for both Israel and Judah. Hence the player can choose if he wants to go monotheistic or polytheistic and so destroy or keep Nehushtan according to taste.
    I agree, this is what I meant above by less is more.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    I honestly have no idea on this one. I'm thinking this is one area where less may be more though. If we get too specific with religions then it's going to be a pain for both players and coders.
    Well I wasn't thinking about giving each deity a different religions. After all most people back then were polytheists and thus they didn't mind worshipping several gods at once. What I was thinking was more that each faction would be able to build temples to various deities. While there are some deities who were more common like Baal and Astarte, there were also some like Milcom and Chemosh who were identified with ethnical groups, or with specific locations or cities like Baalat Gubal or Baal Peor, but all of them were basically gods of the same religion. Most of this is for getting flavor as building temples and restoring temples were a big deal back then and most kings makes a show of how pious and obedient they are towards the gods.

    One entirely possible way would be to cut it down to these groups

    Polytheism - the normal mood of religion in those days
    Yahawism - Hebrew monotheism
    Ashurianism - Assyrian monotheism (if you buy the idea that the Assyrians were developing a monotheism with Ashur at the head)
    Heresy - various splinters that don't accept the official priesthood and thus are a problem for the rulers

  14. #14

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkhal View Post
    Well I wasn't thinking about giving each deity a different religions. After all most people back then were polytheists and thus they didn't mind worshipping several gods at once. What I was thinking was more that each faction would be able to build temples to various deities. While there are some deities who were more common like Baal and Astarte, there were also some like Milcom and Chemosh who were identified with ethnical groups, or with specific locations or cities like Baalat Gubal or Baal Peor, but all of them were basically gods of the same religion. Most of this is for getting flavor as building temples and restoring temples were a big deal back then and most kings makes a show of how pious and obedient they are towards the gods.

    One entirely possible way would be to cut it down to these groups

    Polytheism - the normal mood of religion in those days
    Yahawism - Hebrew monotheism
    Ashurianism - Assyrian monotheism (if you buy the idea that the Assyrians were developing a monotheism with Ashur at the head)
    Heresy - various splinters that don't accept the official priesthood and thus are a problem for the rulers
    Ah, you mean like the RTW temple system? In that case I like it.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Sounds like we are on the same level then.

  16. #16
    Venia's Avatar Auxilium meum a Domino
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    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by Bregil View Post
    Ah, you mean like the RTW temple system? In that case I like it.
    not for the israeli i hope
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Most certainly for them as well. I thought Judah was the ones supposed to be fairly faithful monotheists, but they also tended to be pretty good with worshipping many gods.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Quote Originally Posted by sirvinniei View Post
    not for the israeli i hope
    No, for Israel (and Judah) there should be only one temple for worshiping YHWH but if they go pagan then there would be several to choose from. (Or at least that's my opinion)

  19. #19

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Yes, that's was kind of what I was aiming for. Like in Barbarian Invasion where you can choose if you want to be Christian or Pagan, Israel and Judah can choose if they want to be Yahawists or Polytheists.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Regional religion ideas

    Updated my list about regional deities and deities for various faction; added Mesopotamia and Assyria and Babylon.

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