Endless ashigaru and strange trade system

[Pavlik the Rus]

Hi, my veiw on this game after few days of playing i've posted here
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=435492

Now i want to clear two game moments.

1. Endles ashigaru armies.... What can i say? CA must rebalance AI to force him to make investitions to the buildings. i want to fight against samurais and soheis with ashigaru support, not against thousands of peasants with bows.

2. Trade system. Why i have called this as strange?
Look - we have a factroria (sorry, have no idea how it calls in English original game, but in Russian sea trade spot calls a 'factoria'). In reality it can be a huge trade port in another country, or few ports, or few ports in few countries. So why the hell a ONE ship, belonging to one faction can be a lord of this port/ports? Why another factions can not send there ships too? And without any war actions.
Another strange thing - pirates. When pirate, or any hostile ship, blockading sea trade route no trade ships suffers. It is robbery without robbery. Trade ships must be destroyed at sea trade blockade

My opinion that trade system must be reworked complitely. Now CA make huge move towards this. For example we must have trade relations with stone production faction to build a big castles.
My vision of the trade:
1. Sea factories can not belong to one faction -let's allow this to all.
2. Seablockades must bring damage to trade fleet.
(first two points can be improoved in S2TW i guess)
3. New units needed:
- land trade caravan. Can be hired as trade ships and it is land trade ship's analouge
- merchant. Can be hired as monks, ninjas and so on. He have expperince levels, his skils can be improoved, he may betray his master and so on.

To create a new trade route in factoria you must hire one merchant and build at least one trade ship. You put merchant on the ship and bring him to the factoria. You can add more ships later (i remind that ships are transports only, all trade job can be made by one merchant). Merchant will rise his experience on this duty with various numbers of virtues and traits.

To create a new sea trade route with neutral or friendly faction you must have trade rights with that faction. After that you acts as previous time - merchant aboard the ship arrives to the faction's port. All other aspects the same.

To create a new land trade route with neutral or friendly faction you must have trade rights with that faction. Then you send your merchant to the faction's castle and add one or more caravan units. All other aspects the same.

Each ship or caravan have cargo capasity. Your merchant brings profit, not transport units. If your merchant will be the best amongst others you will send few ships or caravans, if he is a loser - you will enough one ship. Numbers of trade units on route will besame as numbers of small figures of ships and traders with wagons. Yes, btw, land traders can be destroyed by land blockade too.

This is my opinion. It can be liked or not. But i hope that CA's members will read this and discuss this. I understand that changes like p.3 hardly can be implemented in S2TW as patch. In add-on probably

[Kimey]

As to your first point this is historically accurate. I've read that the samurai class consisted of only 8% of the the population.

[oneah]

As to your first point this is historically accurate. I've read that the samurai class consisted of only 8% of the the population.

8% of the population would make the army mostly based of samurai then.. its already hard to believe that 8% of the Japanese population was enlisted in the army. You know army's are usually a small % of a country's population heh

[gamesguy]

8% of the population would make the army mostly based of samurai then.. its already hard to believe that 8% of the Japanese population was enlisted in the army. You know army's are usually a small % of a country's population heh

Samurai wasn't a soldier, it was a class. Being a samurai just meant you were part of the nobility, the majority of samurai weren't soldiers.

[Taishō]

The main problem here is: The game just offers 3 different Ashigaru Units. Yumi (Bow) and Teppou (Gun) aren't meant to be used as melee infantry, but they can fight evenly with the current Yari Ashigaru (wich I think is bad for the gameplay). Perhaps CA (or the modding community) could add a different type of Ashigaru: Have some with the longer (~5m) Yari to take the Anti-Cavalry role of the current unit and have another Ashigaru Unit with the shorter (~2m) Yari (the one the "Yari Samurai" currently use; with the same animation as this is how the shorter Yari would be used) to form the bulk of the melee infantry. Those should be a little better in melee against other infantry than the current unit.

So we could have:

Yari Ashigaru with longer spears: Very effective against cavalry, but quite poor against everything else (because the only use tachi or katana in melee and the longer spears are more of a hindrance)

Yari Ashigaru with shorter spears: The main Infantry for both the player and the AI. Should be the best melee Ashigaru unit. Still effective against cavalry but not as much as the above and without the spear wall.

Yumi Ashigaru: no changes (perhaps a little less accurate or a little more upkeep as a bow reqieres much skill to be used properly)

Teppou Ashigaru: no changes


What do you think?

[DeMolay]

The main problem here is: The game just offers 3 different Ashigaru Units. Yumi (Bow) and Teppou (Gun) aren't meant to be used as melee infantry, but they can fight evenly with the current Yari Ashigaru (wich I think is bad for the gameplay). Perhaps CA (or the modding community) could add a different type of Ashigaru: Have some with the longer (~5m) Yari to take the Anti-Cavalry role of the current unit and have another Ashigaru Unit with the shorter (~2m) Yari (the one the "Yari Samurai" currently use; with the same animation as this is how the shorter Yari would be used) to form the bulk of the melee infantry. Those should be a little better in melee against other infantry than the current unit.

So we could have:

Yari Ashigaru with longer spears: Very effective against cavalry, but quite poor against everything else (because the only use tachi or katana in melee and the longer spears are more of a hindrance)

Yari Ashigaru with shorter spears: The main Infantry for both the player and the AI. Should be the best melee Ashigaru unit. Still effective against cavalry but not as much as the above and without the spear wall.

Yumi Ashigaru: no changes (perhaps a little less accurate or a little more upkeep as a bow reqieres much skill to be used properly)

Teppou Ashigaru: no changes


What do you think?

i think its a very Good idea (especially to distinguish short and long spears )

However for increased upkeep of Bow Ashigaru , i don't agree , simple bows like they use doesn't require any more skill than a Yari unit , firing grouped volleys of arrows was mastered very quickly , it's not more difficult than learning to keep the formation of spears during the engagement , forming a spear wall quickly and efficiently etc


What required years of training was the use of the Japanese longbow which was designed for cavalry use (that is why it is not symmetrical ) , this required years and years to master , only samurais used this weapon .

Similarly in Europe , the English longbowmen required years of training because they were supposed to fire very far with decent accuracy with a longbow that required a heavy pull force , but also especially because they had to defend themselves once they were out of arrows and still remain a reliable fighting force in melee combat that the King could use overseas during the "chevauchee" in hostile territories in France , that is why the training of longbowmen took a few years (also because the Norman English kings wanted a high quality multi-task soldiers that could outreach the ennemy and still be reliable when outnumbered or out of arrows )

Now peasants archers in Japan is a totally different matter , they fired with simple bows , but especially the arrows they used were nothing like the heavy Mongol arrows or Welsh bodkin arrows or even the quality arrows that samurais used with the Japanese longbow . Ashigarus used lighter cheap arrows , and with their bow , the range was not great , and that is why even though the firearms were quite innacurate , they quickly became valuable in the eyes of the Japanese daymios for obvious reasons , but one is that it could also outrange the typical Ashigaru archers on the battlefield

[Yarkis de Bodemloze]

The main problem here is: The game just offers 3 different Ashigaru Units. Yumi (Bow) and Teppou (Gun) aren't meant to be used as melee infantry, but they can fight evenly with the current Yari Ashigaru (wich I think is bad for the gameplay).

Hm, I don't get your argument. Yari Ashigaru are superior in melee. Simply look at the unit stats.

[AngryTitusPullo]

The main problem here is: The game just offers 3 different Ashigaru Units. Yumi (Bow) and Teppou (Gun) aren't meant to be used as melee infantry, but they can fight evenly with the current Yari Ashigaru (wich I think is bad for the gameplay). Perhaps CA (or the modding community) could add a different type of Ashigaru: Have some with the longer (~5m) Yari to take the Anti-Cavalry role of the current unit and have another Ashigaru Unit with the shorter (~2m) Yari (the one the "Yari Samurai" currently use; with the same animation as this is how the shorter Yari would be used) to form the bulk of the melee infantry. Those should be a little better in melee against other infantry than the current unit.

So we could have:

Yari Ashigaru with longer spears: Very effective against cavalry, but quite poor against everything else (because the only use tachi or katana in melee and the longer spears are more of a hindrance)

Yari Ashigaru with shorter spears: The main Infantry for both the player and the AI. Should be the best melee Ashigaru unit. Still effective against cavalry but not as much as the above and without the spear wall.

Yumi Ashigaru: no changes (perhaps a little less accurate or a little more upkeep as a bow reqieres much skill to be used properly)

Teppou Ashigaru: no changes


What do you think?

Wait for DLC.

[Xatham]

Yari Ashigaru with longer spears: Very effective against cavalry, but quite poor against everything else (because the only use tachi or katana in melee and the longer spears are more of a hindrance)

So long as the Yaris with long spears still beat the short spear if they are in spear wall formation.

There was a reason Nobunaga equipped all his ashigaru with long pikes, and it wasn't just because he was afraid of horses. They are also superior in melee, if your formation doesen't break. Sure, as soon as it's penetrated, the pike is useless.. but until then, they are much better than shorter spears.

[Emilio Aguinaldo]

8% of the population would make the army mostly based of samurai then.. its already hard to believe that 8% of the Japanese population was enlisted in the army. You know army's are usually a small % of a country's population heh

Since the Japanese population was arguably up to 15,000,000 during the 'Sengoku Jidai'. I believe it is possible for their to be around 150,000 to 300,000 samurai in the whole of Japan. At its peak though, the entirety of Japan's military strength is believed to have been 750,000 to maybe even over 1,000,000 strong.

[Strattios]

Some good ideas, however, much of what you are complaining about has a basis.

1) Ashigaru were the basis of armies in this period. There were no real Samurai "units" as in the game. They were mixed through out and were often captains of Ashigaru. Warfare was simply evolving. Same thing was in Europe. You wouldn't expect a company of English knights waving broad swords around and wearing plate armor in this period.

2) I'm assuming you are talking about trade nodes. The reason why only one faction can have trade rights in a trade port is because it's a game. In real life you would also have to bring your ship back to port every time it had something. They allow only on faction so that it becomes a desirable and finite commodity so that players and AI have to consider its value. If a faction has three trade spots near you, and you really need the money, you now have to go to war for that money, not just pull up and get a piece of the pie. And when a trade lane is being attacked, you do lose money, again, they are attacking the idea of trade as your trade ship isn't literally moving back and forth.

As for actually damaging trade fleets, simply attacking the route should have no effect. If you want to damage the fleet, then attack the fleet itself, not its path.

They had merchants in M2. They aren't going back as CA believed it was one of those needless layers of complication that didn't add enough to the game.

Just remember on the trade part. While many of your ideas are great, CA wanted to streamline the game. Having to manage ships and merchants at every trade port and having to have a merchant at every castle you want to trade with would take to much time and energy for what it contributes to the game overall.

3)

[gord96]

the bulk of Japanese armies were ashigaru. its the player who makes huge armies of samurai that unbalances things. truth is, samurai should maybe be a bit more expensive.

[Kimey]

I agree Gord. I'd prefer to see less samurai. I'm not knocking the game, it's good. Samurai should really be a limited elite.

[Thoragoros]

Frankly, if the AI built more Samurai, it would be a bad thing. Right now, CAI is very, very good, but building more Samurai would put an unnecessary strain on its economy.

I don't want a CAI that breaks its own economy because it tries to build Samurai simply for the sake of building Samurai. And frankly, the CAI builds no more or less Samurai than I do, and I build all the Samurai that I can possibly afford, which is no more than 2-4 units per stack.

I really don't think Samurai are mean to fill entire stacks.

I agree Gord. I'd prefer to see less samurai. I'm not knocking the game, it's good. Samurai should really be a limited elite.

Agreed.

[Becephalus]

Some good ideas, however, much of what you are complaining about has a basis.

1) Ashigaru were the basis of armies in this period.

2) The reason why only one faction can have trade rights in a trade port is because it's a game. I

Frankly, if the AI built more Samurai, it would be a bad thing. Right now, CAI is very, very good, but building more Samurai would put an unnecessary strain on its economy.

I don't want a CAI that breaks its own economy because it tries to build Samurai simply for the sake of building Samurai. And frankly, the CAI builds no more or less Samurai than I do, and I build all the Samurai that I can possibly afford, which is no more than 2-4 units per stack.

I really don't think Samurai are mean to fill entire stacks.

Listen to what these two said. it is exactly right.

[empr guy]

i agree that trade needs to be reworked, its both increadibly simple and unintresting, you get trade agreements then you can forget about the whole thing. And can your provinces even trade with each other in this game? one thing that annoyed me in empire was that you could trade with other nations, but not within your country.

The idea that merchants were "complicated" kind of worries me about who buys TW games, they were also simple but added more to trade options, meaning there was actually something to do.

[SonOfCrusader76]

Would you prefer to go back to Rome/Medieval II's random trade system? There's nothing wrong with the way trade nodes work.

[empr guy]

Would you prefer to go back to Rome/Medieval II's random trade system? There's nothing wrong with the way trade nodes work.

what was wrong with R/M2? you realize trade nodes are just merchants incorperated into boats right? there was nothing wrong with how they worked either, but apperantly we might loose trade nodes since they are so complex.

[SonOfCrusader76]

what was wrong with R/M2? you realize trade nodes are just merchants incorperated into boats right? there was nothing wrong with how they worked either, but apperantly we might loose trade nodes since they are so complex.

With trade nodes, I feel as though I have more control over my own trade. Before the trade nodes, I felt helpless - I built the markets, improved the roads etc, etc - but I didn't feel I had as much control as I do now.

[empr guy]

With trade nodes, I feel as though I have more control over my own trade. Before the trade nodes, I felt helpless - I built the markets, improved the roads etc, etc - but I didn't feel I had as much control as I do now.

did you even play medieval II?