In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

[RollingWave]

A few general thought.

1. there are obviously some serious inaccuratcies, but as a whole if we compare this to M2TW or RTW I think it's actually a lot closer to the truth than those two , at least there's no super heat seeking warhounds and knights wearing plate armour with jousting lance in 1100.


2. bows : before teipo (arquebus) became wide spread, bows were generally considered the most leathal weapon in Japanese warfare. and the status of a Samurai s really marked as much as in bowmenship as anything else. IMHO their power is fairly accurate but what is not is their abundence, having large Ashigaru contingents being able to pull bows almost as effectively as Samurais is fairly unrealistic, if they just remove most ashigaru bows it would balance it a lot more (and more realistic). Though yeah.. Japanese archery is said to be not particularly good, at least relative to Continental standards (then again, East Asia Continental standards on bows were really high for obvious reasons). neither the Koreans nor the Chinese were impressed with Japanese archery during the Imjin war. they were far more impressed with the Japanese infantry formation's discipline than anythign else.

3. Horse : yeah.. horses are way too good in this S2TW, by the later 16th C really the only real cavalry units would be the generals themself (with some very rare instances where their would still be real horse archers that work as units.). and that's more for running than anything else. Only higher ranking Samurais would be mounted and that was mostly for command purpose than anything else . though I can understand from a game perspective that going that way would probably turn off most casual gamers.

4. armour : armour's effectiveness against arrow is really a difficult thing to judge, humans are rarely a fixed stationary target, and obviously armour's effectiveness lies in both the protective nature of the armour itself and how much area it covered, Japanese armour being of the lamellar variety generally was better in the former than the later... aka arrows actually going through armour was kinda rare, but there were enough exposed areas that arrows were still quite effective for disabling / wounding targets.

[Khopesh]

Apparently, the "sōhei did not operate as individuals, or even as members of small, individual temples, but rather as warriors in a large extended brotherhood or monastic order. The 'home temple' of a sōhei monastic order might have had several, if not tens or a hundred, smaller monasteries, training halls, and subordinate temples." - according to wikipedia, and a number of other websites.

This would mean that, in-game, the Sohei (warrior monks) should be represented as a clan by themselves. But then there are other factors here - the Sohei would also work for other factions or clans, sort-of like a band of mercenaries. The Ikko-Ikki seemed to be more widespread than the Sohei during the Sengoku-jidai, but the Warrior monk in Shogun 2 are modelled after the sohei, most likely because they had more of a "uniform" or sorts in comparisson to teh Ikko-ikki, and look cool.


In regards to the many people who keep referring to the Katana/No-Dachi units not being realistic.... I'm suprised no-one has mentioned anything about the Ninja - since the ninja represented in this game are nothing more than "Hollywood" ninja.

There is no evidence to suggest that ninja ever wore black costumes. Ninja were first depicted as black-clad stalkers in the eighteenth century Kabuki theater. In Japanese theater, prop handlers were usually dressed in black as they moved across the dark backstage. This allowed them to rearrange the scene without being conspicious; the audience acted as if the prop handlers were truely invisible. It is very likely that this was the true "origin" of the ninja costume. According Stephen K. Hayes, himself a practitioner of modern Ninjutsu, suggests that the traditional ninja costume may never have been used in real life.

Whenever possible, a ninja would dress appropriately to the location. Inside a palace, they would dress as samurai or servants. In a village, they would be hidden as peasants or fishermen. Posing as beggers or insane people were likely, as they had such a low status that most people (including guards) would try NOT to notice them. Anyone who saw a ninja wearing a dark garb would instantly recognize they should not be there.

On top of this, they would never engage in combat, ESPECIALLY against a samurai. Ninjutsu is the art of stealth and evading. Ninja would do anything to get the job done, and survive at the end of it. This would mean they are more likely to set traps or distractions on a battlefield, rather than engage the enemy directly.


Then there are the Geisha's who aren't actually assassins OR prostitutes. They are entertainers. Japanese prostitutes are called Courtesans, and female assassins, I think, are called Kunoichi (?). They put Geisha in the game because they are more popular and recognizable, apparently.


So, if you want a more historically accurate depiction of Japan, you are probably best to go back in time and visit Japan yourself - since most games, books, and movies, will most likely continue to depict Ninja and Samurai in a similar fashion to Shogun 2, because that's what the audience expects.

[毛利 元就]

Re: Sohei: the problem with there being "a sohei faction" is that it's like saying there should be "a samurai faction." It's true that there were large brotherhoods encompassing hundreds of branch temples, but there were still many independent temples in addition to four or five big ones (kofukuji, enryakuji, todaiji, etc). These were sprawling, land-owning, massive political, economic, and military entities. They were the third part of the kamakura era triangle of power around Kyoto: nobility, samurai, temples. As this system fell apart and the provinces spun away, just like the Samurai gained local control over their land as the central authority weakened, so too did the temples need to either assert control over their territory or lose it to local samurai. The larger temples were major players, especially around Kyoto, and were either conquered or brought under the control of the Unifiers (Oda Nobunaga burning down Enryakuji is considered by many the worst of his excesses, one of the final signs that the old order was gone forever, and it was seen by many that his death was karma for this action). There were many smaller temples that Nobunaga, for instance, simply co-opted, requiring tribute and troops from them just like any of the minor lords that became his vassals. Temples that resisted were destroyed.

The Ikko-Ikki were a whole different thing, a large and relatively young religious movement called Jodo Shinshu that was a radically different take on Buddhism than the other large sects involved. The Honganji, the head temple of the Jodo Shinshu, wasn't like the other head temples; they all drew their upper leadership from second and third sons of the nobility and concerned themselves with the salvation of their own monks (though, according to Tendai or Hosso teachings, simply by being a bunch of virtuous guys on a mountain you're making the universe as a whole work better). Jodo Shinshu was a salvational sect, meaning it promised that if ANYONE believed in the Amida Buddha, they would be saved and go to the Pure Land. It sounds a lot like evangelical christianity, and they acted like it too. Peasants believing in it would defend the Honganji's branch temples to the death, and they would find alliances with local samurai and minor lords who also had an interest in defying whatever daimyo was trying to consolidate control of that province. By the time Nobunaga squared off against the Honganji, the head abbot of the temple was basically a daimyo unto himself, in control of 3 or 4 provinces, with frequent uprisings in several of the provinces that Nobunaga had already conquered.

Representing that in a game is, well, really hard. So there are recruitable monks, and an ikko-ikki faction that mostly uses ashigaru.

Also yeah, geisha and ninja, lol. Whatcha gonna do.

[Doe3000]

Shogun 2 is more accurate than the other Total War games, although when you think about spell casting witches in Medieval 2 or Ballista chariots in Rome, that doesn't say much.

Still, they've done very good. You can't have it 100% accurate as it would be too complex and dull, while there's no such thing as 100% accyracy anyway as there are many different interpretations of history.

[Blopwerth III]

Then there are the Geisha's who aren't actually assassins OR prostitutes. They are entertainers. Japanese prostitutes are called Courtesans, and female assassins, I think, are called Kunoichi (?). They put Geisha in the game because they are more popular and recognizable, apparently.

The Geisha are really in the game because casual gamers are attracted to in-game cutscenes featuring nudity. We do, in fact, see a butt cheek. If the camera moves a little to the right, the rating of the game would probably go up at least one level.

[wis]

Well from a historical perspective the 1545 vanilla campaign has quite a few historical mistakes.

The Uesugi clan didn't rule Echigo in 1545. The Nagao clan ruled Echigo! Uesugi Kenshin was known as Nagao Kagetora in 1545. It wasn't until he inherited the Uesugi clan in 1551 that he changed his name to Uesugi Masatora. Also the mon CA has given the Uesugi clan is incorrect. If you want to take a look at the correct mon then take a look at the Ogigayatsu mon(The Yamanouchi-Uesugi and Ogigayatsu clans were branches of the main Uesugi clan). CA has incorrectly given the Uesugi clan the Bishamonten letters as their mon. The BI letters were used in one of several of Uesugi Kenshins personal standards.

The Asakura clan ruled Echizen, not the Ikko Ikki.

The "Hattori" clan did not rule Iga. A Ikki "Mob" Republic ruled Iga.

The Tokugawa clan was known as the Matsudaira clan in 1545. It wasn't until Matsudaira Motoyasu(Ieyasu) petitioned the Imperial court for a new name in 1567 that the clan became the Tokugawa clan.

There were no mass formations of "Katana" units. The primary melee weapon of the period was the spear..

The Hatakeyama clan was not one big single clan. But its branches were indepedent of each other and thus should have been divided into three clans.

CA has not included the Ishiyama Hongaji temple/town. Since the temple was the headquarters of the Ikko-shu and were a powerful faction in the Kansai region.

Just to name a few..

[毛利 元就]

As for clan names: You're technically correct (the best kind of correct), but it'd be pretty difficult and confusing to change the clan names around on the fly in the game, especially since the historical contingencies that led to the names changing wouldn't necessarily have happened..

CA has not included the Ishiyama Hongaji temple/town. Since the temple was the headquarters of the Ikko-shu and were a powerful faction in the Kansai region.

Well, Osaka is in the game, and Osaka-jo is built basically on the foundations of the Ishiyama Honganji. The problem is that it's not owned by the honganji.. again, though, it would have been pretty difficult to do. The AI would have to be totally different to reflect reality, because the honganji acted differently from a daimyo.. there were uprisings throughout the kinai, but they were also up in Kaga and Echizen. Again a weakness in the game is the problem with saying who "controls a province..." real life isn't a campaign map, and controlling the main castle doesn't mean you're in charge of the whole place. Temples and communities in the countryside loyal to the Honganji were fiercely independent until crushed one by one, and could usually rally together or find local samurai seeking to rebel as well. The Asakura were IN Echizen and may have had nominal control, but it wasn't until Nobunaga that the restive Ikko were put down for good.

So yeah anything to do with the Ikko is a wash. At least they're in the game as something other than totally random uprisings, though, right?

And yeeeah, the entire Hattori clan is like ninja and katana samurai: put in the game to please fanboys and act out hollywood fantasy. Sigh.

[athanaric]

Again a weakness in the game is the problem with saying who "controls a province..." real life isn't a campaign map, and controlling the main castle doesn't mean you're in charge of the whole place.

This is why I've been wondering lately how to implement shared control of a province, i.e. worldly vs spiritual authority, business monopolies, colonies, agreements etc. Of course, those are hardly possible to implement in a TW game.

And yeeeah, the entire Hattori clan is like ninja and katana samurai: put in the game to please fanboys and act out hollywood fantasy. Sigh.

It's really a shame that they bowed over once again for cash. The TW games have a certain potential to educate the masses about history, but they always manage to screw up in some way. That's why mods are still necessary.

[Lysimachos]

People tend to make the conception of the Hattori look worse than it really is.

Sure, there was no single clan with an army of Ninja ruling Iga with the name Hattori. But let's have a look on what is true.

- Iga was famous for families who practised techniques that could be titled as ninjutsu.
- One of these families were the Hattori. One member of this family is in fact one of the more famous men from Iga: Hattori Hanzo Masashige served Tokugawa Ieyasu as commander of Tokugawa's detachment from Iga. In the chronicle "Mikawa Monogatari" Hanzo is named as one of Tokugawa's best Samurai.
- The Samurai of Iga dealt a humiliating defeat to an Invasion force led by Oda Nobuo, using surprise attacks, night attacks, covert troop movements etc.; in short: diverse Guerilla tactics.

There certainly is a good portion of artistic license, but I do think that the bonus the Hattori faction gets has the same or even more justification than some of the other clan bonusses.

[kaasbris]

AFAIK, there remains few proper history book regarding Sengoku, most of remains are largely collections of stories and novels, which based little on the facts. In fact, authors of those story books are remained anonymous, also usually written too later after the events.

For example, Takeda cavalry is believe to be a mere myth, as there are no record remained about such operation of cavalries in a big group, except in more modern "novels". Also, as usual height of Japanese during sengoku was less than 5 feet that's why their Yari was regarded very long (for them) and wall was rather short for european standard, thus being "historically accurate" can lead to nowhere.

[Homusubi]

It's too easy to slam all references to shinobi as Hollywood. Some of it is, but some of it's true. Although Hattori should be renamed Iga Ikki or something along those lines.

The main problem I have with it is with the Ikko-ikki. In reality, the main stronghold of the Ikko was Ishiyama Honganji (in southern Settsu in Shogun terms; I think it's Izumi province in reality. That's another thing: split "Settsu" in half!). Yet there is no mention of any Ikko in the Kinai ingame, instead they control two provinces in Hokuriku, one of which they never owned (Echizen).

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Yeah not to mention the various vassal clans that they had in areas like Etchu and Noto as well as in Echigo like the Nagao and the clans in Shinano and Kozuke.

[Stincky]

Yeah not to mention the various vassal clans that they had in areas like Etchu and Noto as well as in Echigo like the Nagao and the clans in Shinano and Kozuke.

I could be wrong on this but it seems as there was a significant presence of Minamoto cadet branches all over Shinano... and the Sanada was part of a group of similarly related clans...the Unno i believe. Another example would be Kiso for the Minamoto cadet branches. Noto or Etchu would be the Shiba lands they were given as Kanrei a few hundred years earlier and had the Kai and Asakura as their shugo deputies. I got a love for all the Ashikaga cadet branches. Oh lastly Kozuke would be all the Nitta cadet branches and Nagao who served the Uyesugi in their areas of rule-

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

I could be wrong on this but it seems as there was a significant presence of Minamoto cadet branches all over Shinano... and the Sanada was part of a group of similarly related clans...the Unno i believe. Another example would be Kiso for the Minamoto cadet branches. Noto or Etchu would be the Shiba lands they were given as Kanrei a few hundred years earlier and had the Kai and Asakura as their shugo deputies. I got a love for all the Ashikaga cadet branches. Oh lastly Kozuke would be all the Nitta cadet branches and Nagao who served the Uyesugi in their areas of rule-

I'm not sure about the details, at least not as detailed as you put it.
But the Noto and Etchu area also had the Hatakeyama and the Kanto area also had subordinate vassals of the Kanto Kanrei in the form of clans such as the Ota (which had a prominent samurai/vassal called Ota Dokan in the 1400's). I'm not sure about the Minamoto thing though.

[legate]

How widely were no-dachis used? Would it have been possible to meet a no-dachi regiment on the battlefield? If yes, then I could turn them into a regional special unit.

IMO the Ōdachi sword was not widely used. They were difficult to manufacture and no easy way to carry them. The Wikipedia article claims most Samurai that used them carried them on their backs.

As they were very long they were unsuitable for close combat so they may have been used primarily as cavalry swords. Other sources say they were mainly ceremonial swords.

The average length of an ōdachi is 65–70 inches long (approx 165–178 cm), often with a 4–5 foot (approx 120–150 cm) blade. This made them unsuitable for close-quarters combat. Instead, they are commonly believed to have been used by fighters on horseback, as the blade length would allow them to take down infantry (without risk of being pulled off their mount).

[Raythemedic]

A lot of valid points have been mentioned (like the weird Uesugi clan things). There's a few more tho.

1. Mutsu (Fukushima + Miyagi + Irate) and Dewa (Uzen + Ugo) are huge provinces so it's understandable how they couldn't fit all the minor clans up north in this game. However, Date was much closer to Miyagi (they occupied parts of Miyagi, Fukushima and Uzen) and shouldn't be given Iwate as its home province. Neither did Mogami control any part of Ugo (Ugo was heavily divided by small clans like Tozawa, Konodera, Ando and some minor kokujins). Iwate could've been given to the Nanbu clan, a major power in that province. Since the Miyagi province wasn't controlled by the Hatakeyama clan, it could've been given to the Date.


2. Osaka-Jo wasn't constructed until Toyotomi Hideyoshi basically replaced Oda Nobunaga, so Ishiyama temple would've suited better.

3. Ito didn't control both Osumi and Hyuga provinces. Osumi was in fact, mostly controlled by a power clan called the Kimotsuki clan.

4. Hattori was a samurai retainer under Tokugawa Ieyasu whom controlled scouts, that's why he was commonly mistaken to be a ninja.

5. Otomo Yoshishige (Otomo Sorin) was the first in the Otomo clan to be a Christian, so at 1545, the daimyo who is his father, would still be a Buddhist. the Otomo clan also didn't control Buzen province, as the Otomo only were able to invade it after the significant weakening of the Ouchi clan (who controlled Buzen) after the battle of Itsukushima in 1555.

6. Neither Chikugo or Chikuzen province owned by the Shoni clan. Chikugo was owned by a powerful but very regional clan named the Kamachi clan, while Chikuzen was owned by the Akizuki clan.

That's all i can think of

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

The Date clan starting all the way in the north is a really annoying inaccuracy. Expanded Provinces mod does the map so much better.

[Hazbones]

The units, battles, clans, characters, etc.

How many things are historically inaccurate?

I think it would be a much shorter answer to name all of the "historically accurate" things in Shogun II.