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Thread: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

  1. #21
    Miles
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Well from a historical perspective the 1545 vanilla campaign has quite a few historical mistakes.

    The Uesugi clan didn't rule Echigo in 1545. The Nagao clan ruled Echigo! Uesugi Kenshin was known as Nagao Kagetora in 1545. It wasn't until he inherited the Uesugi clan in 1551 that he changed his name to Uesugi Masatora. Also the mon CA has given the Uesugi clan is incorrect. If you want to take a look at the correct mon then take a look at the Ogigayatsu mon(The Yamanouchi-Uesugi and Ogigayatsu clans were branches of the main Uesugi clan). CA has incorrectly given the Uesugi clan the Bishamonten letters as their mon. The BI letters were used in one of several of Uesugi Kenshins personal standards.

    The Asakura clan ruled Echizen, not the Ikko Ikki.

    The "Hattori" clan did not rule Iga. A Ikki "Mob" Republic ruled Iga.

    The Tokugawa clan was known as the Matsudaira clan in 1545. It wasn't until Matsudaira Motoyasu(Ieyasu) petitioned the Imperial court for a new name in 1567 that the clan became the Tokugawa clan.

    There were no mass formations of "Katana" units. The primary melee weapon of the period was the spear..

    The Hatakeyama clan was not one big single clan. But its branches were indepedent of each other and thus should have been divided into three clans.

    CA has not included the Ishiyama Hongaji temple/town. Since the temple was the headquarters of the Ikko-shu and were a powerful faction in the Kansai region.

    Just to name a few..
    Last edited by wis; March 28, 2011 at 02:16 PM.

  2. #22

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    As for clan names: You're technically correct (the best kind of correct), but it'd be pretty difficult and confusing to change the clan names around on the fly in the game, especially since the historical contingencies that led to the names changing wouldn't necessarily have happened..

    Quote Originally Posted by wis View Post
    CA has not included the Ishiyama Hongaji temple/town. Since the temple was the headquarters of the Ikko-shu and were a powerful faction in the Kansai region.
    Well, Osaka is in the game, and Osaka-jo is built basically on the foundations of the Ishiyama Honganji. The problem is that it's not owned by the honganji.. again, though, it would have been pretty difficult to do. The AI would have to be totally different to reflect reality, because the honganji acted differently from a daimyo.. there were uprisings throughout the kinai, but they were also up in Kaga and Echizen. Again a weakness in the game is the problem with saying who "controls a province..." real life isn't a campaign map, and controlling the main castle doesn't mean you're in charge of the whole place. Temples and communities in the countryside loyal to the Honganji were fiercely independent until crushed one by one, and could usually rally together or find local samurai seeking to rebel as well. The Asakura were IN Echizen and may have had nominal control, but it wasn't until Nobunaga that the restive Ikko were put down for good.

    So yeah anything to do with the Ikko is a wash. At least they're in the game as something other than totally random uprisings, though, right?

    And yeeeah, the entire Hattori clan is like ninja and katana samurai: put in the game to please fanboys and act out hollywood fantasy. Sigh.

  3. #23

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by 毛利 元就 View Post
    Again a weakness in the game is the problem with saying who "controls a province..." real life isn't a campaign map, and controlling the main castle doesn't mean you're in charge of the whole place.
    This is why I've been wondering lately how to implement shared control of a province, i.e. worldly vs spiritual authority, business monopolies, colonies, agreements etc. Of course, those are hardly possible to implement in a TW game.


    And yeeeah, the entire Hattori clan is like ninja and katana samurai: put in the game to please fanboys and act out hollywood fantasy. Sigh.
    It's really a shame that they bowed over once again for cash. The TW games have a certain potential to educate the masses about history, but they always manage to screw up in some way. That's why mods are still necessary.

  4. #24

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    People tend to make the conception of the Hattori look worse than it really is.

    Sure, there was no single clan with an army of Ninja ruling Iga with the name Hattori. But let's have a look on what is true.

    - Iga was famous for families who practised techniques that could be titled as ninjutsu.
    - One of these families were the Hattori. One member of this family is in fact one of the more famous men from Iga: Hattori Hanzo Masashige served Tokugawa Ieyasu as commander of Tokugawa's detachment from Iga. In the chronicle "Mikawa Monogatari" Hanzo is named as one of Tokugawa's best Samurai.
    - The Samurai of Iga dealt a humiliating defeat to an Invasion force led by Oda Nobuo, using surprise attacks, night attacks, covert troop movements etc.; in short: diverse Guerilla tactics.

    There certainly is a good portion of artistic license, but I do think that the bonus the Hattori faction gets has the same or even more justification than some of the other clan bonusses.
    Last edited by Lysimachos; March 29, 2011 at 11:59 AM.

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  5. #25
    kaasbris's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    AFAIK, there remains few proper history book regarding Sengoku, most of remains are largely collections of stories and novels, which based little on the facts. In fact, authors of those story books are remained anonymous, also usually written too later after the events.

    For example, Takeda cavalry is believe to be a mere myth, as there are no record remained about such operation of cavalries in a big group, except in more modern "novels". Also, as usual height of Japanese during sengoku was less than 5 feet that's why their Yari was regarded very long (for them) and wall was rather short for european standard, thus being "historically accurate" can lead to nowhere.

  6. #26

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    It's too easy to slam all references to shinobi as Hollywood. Some of it is, but some of it's true. Although Hattori should be renamed Iga Ikki or something along those lines.

    The main problem I have with it is with the Ikko-ikki. In reality, the main stronghold of the Ikko was Ishiyama Honganji (in southern Settsu in Shogun terms; I think it's Izumi province in reality. That's another thing: split "Settsu" in half!). Yet there is no mention of any Ikko in the Kinai ingame, instead they control two provinces in Hokuriku, one of which they never owned (Echizen).

  7. #27
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goma125 View Post
    3.Horses
    They are too big.
    Yes. These "horses" are highly ugly and inaccurate. Some people would like to see the Rome II steppe horses in Shogun II, so if anyone has experience in exporting/modelling/animating, please give it a try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    No-dachi was a weapon popular in the 14th century, but in the Sengoku period the only place where they were widely used were in souther Kyushu. Which is why No-dachi were sometimes called Satsuma-dachi.
    How widely were no-dachis used? Would it have been possible to meet a no-dachi regiment on the battlefield? If yes, then I could turn them into a regional special unit.

    Quote Originally Posted by 毛利 元就 View Post
    Other things, like the role of warrior monks, really don't make sense in how they're raised and used in the game, but it would take so much effort to code in hundreds of temples you have to either ally with, co-opt, or destroy. Adding the big ones like enryakuji or kofukuji as a faction would be cool but require way more refinement on the province level than the game could possibly do.
    It would have been sufficient to add them as regional special unit. For example, the one who controls Kii has access to the Negoro-ji monks etc. It is possible and it does work very well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raimeken
    The whole idea of 'katana' Samurai is fake altogether, but losing them would totally remove an important part of the rock-paper-scissor warfare
    My realism mod works very well without katana units and rock-paper-scissor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Homusubi
    Although Hattori should be renamed Iga Ikki or something along those lines.
    As far as I know, Iga Sokoku Ikki seems to be the correct term.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goma125 View Post
    1.Weird Japanese
    When you order units to move faster...
    They say "bai no hayasade"(probably it's literal translation of "double time"), but it should be "kakeasi"(駆け足、run faster).
    They also say "sirizoke" but it means "retreat".
    When you order units to attack,they say "teki wo kougeki seyo"(attack the enemy), but "kakare"(掛かれ、attack)is more accurate in sengoku era.
    etc...
    Given CA (or rather the french publisher, wich is even worse in a way) never managed to release a correct french version, i am not surprised those kind of errors are present in Shogun's 2 japanese...

    (Ex : Canister can be translate into french in two very different meaning, one is a kind of can for gas, the other the shot of lead by cannon, they translated it wrongly in Empire and Napoléon, the artillery cry "gaz"... Also "light foot" translated literraly as "pied leger" whereas it should be "infanterie légčre" etc etc.)

  9. #29

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goma125 View Post
    Historically Ashigarus equip with long pike and used it as "blunt" weapon.
    First they form Phalanx and swing pike downward to enemy head, repeat it over and over again, and when enemy formation disrupt,
    Ashigaru pursue and kill them by using pike as "pierce" weapon.
    Would you have a source for this? The only evidence I have seen so far have been one movie and a page from a manga comic. Is there any contemporary evidence, remnants of this technique in so-jutsu, or whatever?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gen. Sherman View Post
    I actually do archery with a variety of bows, for subject matter traditional recurve and long bows. So I guess all I'd have to ask you is, Have you seen what an arrow can do in person? A crude training arrow from a 60 lb pull can penetrate about 2" of dense wood pretty consistently, and a broad head can do far worse. The game of course has to balance out the idea of how many soldiers would be killed or at least rendered combat ineffective, I for one think the arrows work just fine, I just get frustrated at fighting armies with 10+ units of samurai archers in them!
    Two inches of dense wood is still far easier to penetrate than armour. And 60 lbs may actually be high end for yumi strength, though I do not rule out higher poundage bows. At any rate, armour penetration does not seem to have been guaranteed beyond 10-30 meters. IIRC, the famous English (or Welsh) longbow couldn't penetrate plate beyond 30 meters either. Wood is far easier, because wood splits. Padded cloth and metal is far more difficult. Interestingly, bodkin points do a good job against maille but are very poor against padding. Broad heads, on the other hand, do a good job against padding but are rubbish against maille. But I digress.


    Quote Originally Posted by kaasbris View Post
    For example, Takeda cavalry is believe to be a mere myth, as there are no record remained about such operation of cavalries in a big group, except in more modern "novels". Also, as usual height of Japanese during sengoku was less than 5 feet that's why their Yari was regarded very long (for them) and wall was rather short for european standard, thus being "historically accurate" can lead to nowhere.
    Do you have a source for the Japanese being shorter than five feet tall? They were slightly shorter than Europeans; they weren't dwarves. And with some pikes exceeding 20 feet, I'd say that's long by any standard.
    Last edited by Kissaki; November 10, 2014 at 01:25 PM.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kewpur View Post
    Interesting.

    How accurate are the clan bonuses? i know the takeda cavalry bonus is right, but what about the Uesugi monk bonus?
    Unfortunately not too accurate. The Uesugi should have a warrior bonus to reflect the various warrior societies under their control, especially samurai. So really they should have a samurai bonus if anything maybe also something to do with ashigaru. Also when the Uesugi conquered Kaga, Etchu and Noto they incorporated those ashigaru and samurai from the various clans as well as monks and ronin that served the Ikko Ikki in those regions.

    From a political perspective the leader of the Uesugi was also the Kanto Kanrei meaning that they were supposed to have authority in the Kanto area. During their campaigns against the Hojo they called upon other local clans in the Kanto area to campaign with them.

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  11. #31

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Unfortunately not too accurate. The Uesugi should have a warrior bonus to reflect the various warrior societies under their control, especially samurai. So really they should have a samurai bonus if anything maybe also something to do with ashigaru. Also when the Uesugi conquered Kaga, Etchu and Noto they incorporated those ashigaru and samurai from the various clans as well as monks and ronin that served the Ikko Ikki in those regions.

    From a political perspective the leader of the Uesugi was also the Kanto Kanrei meaning that they were supposed to have authority in the Kanto area. During their campaigns against the Hojo they called upon other local clans in the Kanto area to campaign with them.
    Dont forget that there were what 4 Uesugi clans to deal with and whomever got the proper backing would try and usurp the Kanrei position...inevitable that they would have to war with their kin, when they took over the deputy position after an the Kamakura-fu crumbled.. again because of the same thing..."why do we listen to Kyoto... we have our own Kubo don't we?" blah blah

  12. #32
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Yeah not to mention the various vassal clans that they had in areas like Etchu and Noto as well as in Echigo like the Nagao and the clans in Shinano and Kozuke.

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  13. #33

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Yeah not to mention the various vassal clans that they had in areas like Etchu and Noto as well as in Echigo like the Nagao and the clans in Shinano and Kozuke.
    I could be wrong on this but it seems as there was a significant presence of Minamoto cadet branches all over Shinano... and the Sanada was part of a group of similarly related clans...the Unno i believe. Another example would be Kiso for the Minamoto cadet branches. Noto or Etchu would be the Shiba lands they were given as Kanrei a few hundred years earlier and had the Kai and Asakura as their shugo deputies. I got a love for all the Ashikaga cadet branches. Oh lastly Kozuke would be all the Nitta cadet branches and Nagao who served the Uyesugi in their areas of rule-

  14. #34
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kissaki View Post
    Would you have a source for this? The only evidence I have seen so far have been one movie and a page from a manga comic. Is there any contemporary evidence, remnants of this technique in so-jutsu, or whatever?
    .
    The Manga in question (and the movie, I presume) does quote an actual source. I'm not exactly sure what it's name is called in japanese but the Kanji for it is 雜兵物語 (roughly translate as the story of small time soldiers) which was compiled in the very beginning of the Edo period (around 1630), as sort of a collection of interviews of old Ashigaru / minor samurais who fought during the late Sengoku period.

    The same book does also provide a yari drill that's much more inline with the common pike thrust tactic seen elsewhere. it says it's to stop cavalry from attacking. (there were still cavalries, though almost never in groups larger than 20-30 still, most ashigaru basic units were not that large either. the smaller once were also only 15-20 men with 3-4 Samurai guiding them.) the book is attributed to a early edo period daimyo .
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  15. #35
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stincky View Post
    I could be wrong on this but it seems as there was a significant presence of Minamoto cadet branches all over Shinano... and the Sanada was part of a group of similarly related clans...the Unno i believe. Another example would be Kiso for the Minamoto cadet branches. Noto or Etchu would be the Shiba lands they were given as Kanrei a few hundred years earlier and had the Kai and Asakura as their shugo deputies. I got a love for all the Ashikaga cadet branches. Oh lastly Kozuke would be all the Nitta cadet branches and Nagao who served the Uyesugi in their areas of rule-
    I'm not sure about the details, at least not as detailed as you put it.
    But the Noto and Etchu area also had the Hatakeyama and the Kanto area also had subordinate vassals of the Kanto Kanrei in the form of clans such as the Ota (which had a prominent samurai/vassal called Ota Dokan in the 1400's). I'm not sure about the Minamoto thing though.

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  16. #36
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khopesh View Post

    Then there are the Geisha's who aren't actually assassins OR prostitutes. They are entertainers. Japanese prostitutes are called Courtesans, and female assassins, I think, are called Kunoichi (?). They put Geisha in the game because they are more popular and recognizable, apparently.
    The Geisha are really in the game because casual gamers are attracted to in-game cutscenes featuring nudity. We do, in fact, see a butt cheek. If the camera moves a little to the right, the rating of the game would probably go up at least one level.
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  17. #37
    legate's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    How widely were no-dachis used? Would it have been possible to meet a no-dachi regiment on the battlefield? If yes, then I could turn them into a regional special unit.
    IMO the Ōdachi sword was not widely used. They were difficult to manufacture and no easy way to carry them. The Wikipedia article claims most Samurai that used them carried them on their backs.

    As they were very long they were unsuitable for close combat so they may have been used primarily as cavalry swords. Other sources say they were mainly ceremonial swords.

    The average length of an ōdachi is 65–70 inches long (approx 165–178 cm), often with a 4–5 foot (approx 120–150 cm) blade. This made them unsuitable for close-quarters combat. Instead, they are commonly believed to have been used by fighters on horseback, as the blade length would allow them to take down infantry (without risk of being pulled off their mount).


  18. #38

    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    A lot of valid points have been mentioned (like the weird Uesugi clan things). There's a few more tho.

    1. Mutsu (Fukushima + Miyagi + Irate) and Dewa (Uzen + Ugo) are huge provinces so it's understandable how they couldn't fit all the minor clans up north in this game. However, Date was much closer to Miyagi (they occupied parts of Miyagi, Fukushima and Uzen) and shouldn't be given Iwate as its home province. Neither did Mogami control any part of Ugo (Ugo was heavily divided by small clans like Tozawa, Konodera, Ando and some minor kokujins). Iwate could've been given to the Nanbu clan, a major power in that province. Since the Miyagi province wasn't controlled by the Hatakeyama clan, it could've been given to the Date.


    2. Osaka-Jo wasn't constructed until Toyotomi Hideyoshi basically replaced Oda Nobunaga, so Ishiyama temple would've suited better.

    3. Ito didn't control both Osumi and Hyuga provinces. Osumi was in fact, mostly controlled by a power clan called the Kimotsuki clan.

    4. Hattori was a samurai retainer under Tokugawa Ieyasu whom controlled scouts, that's why he was commonly mistaken to be a ninja.

    5. Otomo Yoshishige (Otomo Sorin) was the first in the Otomo clan to be a Christian, so at 1545, the daimyo who is his father, would still be a Buddhist. the Otomo clan also didn't control Buzen province, as the Otomo only were able to invade it after the significant weakening of the Ouchi clan (who controlled Buzen) after the battle of Itsukushima in 1555.

    6. Neither Chikugo or Chikuzen province owned by the Shoni clan. Chikugo was owned by a powerful but very regional clan named the Kamachi clan, while Chikuzen was owned by the Akizuki clan.

    That's all i can think of

  19. #39
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    The Date clan starting all the way in the north is a really annoying inaccuracy. Expanded Provinces mod does the map so much better.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  20. #40
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    Default Re: In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kewpur View Post
    The units, battles, clans, characters, etc.

    How many things are historically inaccurate?
    I think it would be a much shorter answer to name all of the "historically accurate" things in Shogun II.

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