In general, how historically accurate is S2TW?

[Kewpur]

The units, battles, clans, characters, etc.

How many things are historically inaccurate?

[Goma125]

1.Weird Japanese
When you order units to move faster...
They say "bai no hayasade"(probably it's literal translation of "double time"), but it should be "kakeasi"(駆け足、run faster).
They also say "sirizoke" but it means "retreat".
When you order units to attack,they say "teki wo kougeki seyo"(attack the enemy), but "kakare"（掛かれ、attack)is more accurate in sengoku era.
etc...

2.Yari Ashigaru
They equip Jumonji Yari(十文字槍）、or Chidori Yari（千鳥槍) but these spears are made by highly skilled blacksmith and not for Ashigaru.
Historically Ashigarus equip with long pike and used it as "blunt" weapon.
First they form Phalanx and swing pike downward to enemy head, repeat it over and over again, and when enemy formation disrupt,
Ashigaru pursue and kill them by using pike as "pierce" weapon.

3.Horses
They are too big.

[Keyser]

1.Weird Japanese
When you order units to move faster...
They say "bai no hayasade"(probably it's literal translation of "double time"), but it should be "kakeasi"(駆け足、run faster).
They also say "sirizoke" but it means "retreat".
When you order units to attack,they say "teki wo kougeki seyo"(attack the enemy), but "kakare"（掛かれ、attack)is more accurate in sengoku era.
etc...

Given CA (or rather the french publisher, wich is even worse in a way) never managed to release a correct french version, i am not surprised those kind of errors are present in Shogun's 2 japanese...

(Ex : Canister can be translate into french in two very different meaning, one is a kind of can for gas, the other the shot of lead by cannon, they translated it wrongly in Empire and Napoléon, the artillery cry "gaz"... Also "light foot" translated literraly as "pied leger" whereas it should be "infanterie légère" etc etc.)

[Kissaki]

Historically Ashigarus equip with long pike and used it as "blunt" weapon.
First they form Phalanx and swing pike downward to enemy head, repeat it over and over again, and when enemy formation disrupt,
Ashigaru pursue and kill them by using pike as "pierce" weapon.

Would you have a source for this? The only evidence I have seen so far have been one movie and a page from a manga comic. Is there any contemporary evidence, remnants of this technique in so-jutsu, or whatever?

I actually do archery with a variety of bows, for subject matter traditional recurve and long bows. So I guess all I'd have to ask you is, Have you seen what an arrow can do in person? A crude training arrow from a 60 lb pull can penetrate about 2" of dense wood pretty consistently, and a broad head can do far worse. The game of course has to balance out the idea of how many soldiers would be killed or at least rendered combat ineffective, I for one think the arrows work just fine, I just get frustrated at fighting armies with 10+ units of samurai archers in them!

Two inches of dense wood is still far easier to penetrate than armour. And 60 lbs may actually be high end for yumi strength, though I do not rule out higher poundage bows. At any rate, armour penetration does not seem to have been guaranteed beyond 10-30 meters. IIRC, the famous English (or Welsh) longbow couldn't penetrate plate beyond 30 meters either. Wood is far easier, because wood splits. Padded cloth and metal is far more difficult. Interestingly, bodkin points do a good job against maille but are very poor against padding. Broad heads, on the other hand, do a good job against padding but are rubbish against maille. But I digress.

For example, Takeda cavalry is believe to be a mere myth, as there are no record remained about such operation of cavalries in a big group, except in more modern "novels". Also, as usual height of Japanese during sengoku was less than 5 feet that's why their Yari was regarded very long (for them) and wall was rather short for european standard, thus being "historically accurate" can lead to nowhere.

Do you have a source for the Japanese being shorter than five feet tall? They were slightly shorter than Europeans; they weren't dwarves. And with some pikes exceeding 20 feet, I'd say that's long by any standard.

[RollingWave]

Would you have a source for this? The only evidence I have seen so far have been one movie and a page from a manga comic. Is there any contemporary evidence, remnants of this technique in so-jutsu, or whatever?
.

The Manga in question (and the movie, I presume) does quote an actual source. I'm not exactly sure what it's name is called in japanese but the Kanji for it is 雜兵物語 (roughly translate as the story of small time soldiers) which was compiled in the very beginning of the Edo period (around 1630), as sort of a collection of interviews of old Ashigaru / minor samurais who fought during the late Sengoku period.

The same book does also provide a yari drill that's much more inline with the common pike thrust tactic seen elsewhere. it says it's to stop cavalry from attacking. (there were still cavalries, though almost never in groups larger than 20-30 still, most ashigaru basic units were not that large either. the smaller once were also only 15-20 men with 3-4 Samurai guiding them.) the book is attributed to a early edo period daimyo .

[Kewpur]

Interesting.

How accurate are the clan bonuses? i know the takeda cavalry bonus is right, but what about the Uesugi monk bonus?

[athanaric]

The sight of "Katana Samurai" and "Katana Cavalry" in Shogun II gameplay videos makes me cringe. I find it highly unlikely that a unit of heavy cavalry, for example, would only use a sword in combat. At least they should have a lance or a bow as a primary weapon.

How accurate are the clan bonuses? i know the takeda cavalry bonus is right, but what about the Uesugi monk bonus?

Those factional boni are a highly abstract thing in computer games. You could very well argue against them from a historical perspective.

[Juggernaut]

Those factional boni are a highly abstract thing in computer games. You could very well argue against them from a historical perspective.

And some of them are just made up. Like the No-dachi bonus for Date. Why? No-dachi was a weapon popular in the 14th century, but in the Sengoku period the only place where they were widely used were in souther Kyushu. Which is why No-dachi were sometimes called Satsuma-dachi.

[毛利 元就]

Stuff like clan name, placement, general setting, pretty good. Everything else you can chalk down to "it's a videogame."

Basically though, what makes you win the game is not remotely what made successful daimyo successful. What made a great general was tactical innovation, both weapons AND tactics (Nobunaga rode to victory largely on being the first and the best to apply matchlocks). It was also managing internal politics, which the game includes a (pretty weak) simulation of that doesn't match the complexity of day-to-day management in a zero-sum game of extremely ambitious warrior leaders working together. Then you have the really boring but crucial things, like managing a supply line.

I'm not complaining, of course. If you think about it, daimyo worked all day every day for 50 years to accomplish something we expect to wrap up in ~20 hours. You never have to use the bathroom in an fps game, either. On the other hand, so many important historical battles were decided by factors that just can't be coded for. Instead, tactical skill has to revolve around placement and troop choice. It's assumed your army is perfectly trained and perfectly supplied, that your captains are loyal, that camps and marches always proceeded without issue...

So they have to "massage" history to make this kind of tactical skill more useful. Thus, including as many kinds of troops as possible. Bam, katana infantry and cavalry. There's precedent, but they certainly weren't widely used.

As for bonuses, of course they have to be pulled out of thin air. Some are easy, like the Takeda were mentioned and were indeed largely known for their cavalry charges. The Mori fought an important naval battle against Oda Nobunaga... so give them navy bonuses I guess? The designers go down the list, eventually they get to Date. They can't give two clans the same bonus.. there's nothing really for them.. eeeh give them no-dachi. Whatcha gonna do.

Other things, like the role of warrior monks, really don't make sense in how they're raised and used in the game, but it would take so much effort to code in hundreds of temples you have to either ally with, co-opt, or destroy. Adding the big ones like enryakuji or kofukuji as a faction would be cool but require way more refinement on the province level than the game could possibly do. Geisha being invincible death-assassins.. ok that's incredibly stupid too.

Other than that there's nothing egregious. It's a videogame, you know? I think it's pretty good given the limitations.

[Wodeson]

I'm not that familiar with this period, but manged to dig this up from an old WRG Army List by Phil Barker.

Although many samurai now carried the spear-like yari and some clans specified that these should be of pike length rather than the usual 8 feet, they still fought as individuals rather than in formation. Their two swords were now used only when the longer weapon was broken or inconvenient. Their armour was lighter than the cumbersome oyoroi of previous times, but the addition of arm and thigh armour made it heavier than the do-maru of the ashigaru “light feet” and monks who also used yari or naginata.

We assume that as the bow lost favour for use on foot, the standard of use declined. Circumstantial evidence tending to confirm this is the use of pavises by small groups that needed to stand up to dense enemy shooting, and that Japanese bowmen in 1592 were out-shot by Koreans.

Ikko Ikki were a mass militant religious movement based on the peasantry, but with a hard core of conventional warriors and Sohei. They were sometimes beaten off by improvised town militias reinforced with local samurai, but such democratic self-defence organisations were considered to be almost equally subversive.

Ronin were impoverished master-less samurai. We assume that they would have little armour or weapons except the cherished swords that were the only remaining sign of samurai status, so would be faster moving and less cohesive.

The Sohei monks still meddled in politics, but were less impetuous in battle. Their few cavalry were still often depicted in the later period with bow as well as naginata.

In earlier times bow armed samurai cavalry fought in wedge or “with bridles aligned” but by now had largely replaced bows with yari, and are depicted charging without regard for formation.

The most famous use of palisades was at Nagashino in 1575, where a heavy rolling fire of matchlocks from behind sections of palisade broke up rash cavalry attacks, leaving them vulnerable to foot samurai counter-attack through gaps between the sections.

[Destin Faroda]

3.Horses
They are too big.

Yes. These "horses" are highly ugly and inaccurate. Some people would like to see the Rome II steppe horses in Shogun II, so if anyone has experience in exporting/modelling/animating, please give it a try.

No-dachi was a weapon popular in the 14th century, but in the Sengoku period the only place where they were widely used were in souther Kyushu. Which is why No-dachi were sometimes called Satsuma-dachi.

How widely were no-dachis used? Would it have been possible to meet a no-dachi regiment on the battlefield? If yes, then I could turn them into a regional special unit.

Other things, like the role of warrior monks, really don't make sense in how they're raised and used in the game, but it would take so much effort to code in hundreds of temples you have to either ally with, co-opt, or destroy. Adding the big ones like enryakuji or kofukuji as a faction would be cool but require way more refinement on the province level than the game could possibly do.

It would have been sufficient to add them as regional special unit. For example, the one who controls Kii has access to the Negoro-ji monks etc. It is possible and it does work very well.

The whole idea of 'katana' Samurai is fake altogether, but losing them would totally remove an important part of the rock-paper-scissor warfare

My realism mod works very well without katana units and rock-paper-scissor.

Although Hattori should be renamed Iga Ikki or something along those lines.

As far as I know, Iga Sokoku Ikki seems to be the correct term.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Interesting.

How accurate are the clan bonuses? i know the takeda cavalry bonus is right, but what about the Uesugi monk bonus?

Unfortunately not too accurate. The Uesugi should have a warrior bonus to reflect the various warrior societies under their control, especially samurai. So really they should have a samurai bonus if anything maybe also something to do with ashigaru. Also when the Uesugi conquered Kaga, Etchu and Noto they incorporated those ashigaru and samurai from the various clans as well as monks and ronin that served the Ikko Ikki in those regions.

From a political perspective the leader of the Uesugi was also the Kanto Kanrei meaning that they were supposed to have authority in the Kanto area. During their campaigns against the Hojo they called upon other local clans in the Kanto area to campaign with them.

[Stincky]

Unfortunately not too accurate. The Uesugi should have a warrior bonus to reflect the various warrior societies under their control, especially samurai. So really they should have a samurai bonus if anything maybe also something to do with ashigaru. Also when the Uesugi conquered Kaga, Etchu and Noto they incorporated those ashigaru and samurai from the various clans as well as monks and ronin that served the Ikko Ikki in those regions.

From a political perspective the leader of the Uesugi was also the Kanto Kanrei meaning that they were supposed to have authority in the Kanto area. During their campaigns against the Hojo they called upon other local clans in the Kanto area to campaign with them.

Dont forget that there were what 4 Uesugi clans to deal with and whomever got the proper backing would try and usurp the Kanrei position...inevitable that they would have to war with their kin, when they took over the deputy position after an the Kamakura-fu crumbled.. again because of the same thing..."why do we listen to Kyoto... we have our own Kubo don't we?" blah blah

[Ahiga]

The description of the Samurai in the first paragraph almost has me think the Yari Samurai and Yari ashigaru should switch spots, so that the Yari Samurai can wield katanas when the long weapon is 'inconvenient'. It would deny them fighting as individuals when it comes to the spear, though.

Interesting comment on the archery. Would guns be so common earlier on? Whether by being quicker to access in research or perhaps not requiring research at all?

[Raimeken]

All units being dyed in your clan colors is probably the most obvious inaccuracy, real samurai often wore very different armor from each other and could only tell each other apart by the sashimoto (flags).

I think the Uesugi monk bonus is not really accurate (cause monk training was probably the same/equal), but it at least gives them an advantage somewhere.

The whole idea of 'katana' Samurai is fake altogether, but losing them would totally remove an important part of the rock-paper-scissor warfare

[Calax]

All units being dyed in your clan colors is probably the most obvious inaccuracy, real samurai often wore very different armor from each other and could only tell each other apart by the sashimoto (flags).

I think the Uesugi monk bonus is not really accurate (cause monk training was probably the same/equal), but it at least gives them an advantage somewhere.

The whole idea of 'katana' Samurai is fake altogether, but losing them would totally remove an important part of the rock-paper-scissor warfare

The Uesugi monk bonus probably comes from Uesugi Kenshin. The guy only took the name (Kenshin) after becoming a Buddhist Monk, and devoting himself to Bishamonten. It got so crazy that often his soldiers considered him to be the human avatar of Bishamonten (the god of war).

I do admit, I am sad that I've yet to see Sanada Nobushige(Yukimura) appear on the battlefield.

[Juggernaut]

The Uesugi monk bonus probably comes from Uesugi Kenshin. The guy only took the name (Kenshin) after becoming a Buddhist Monk, and devoting himself to Bishamonten. It got so crazy that often his soldiers considered him to be the human avatar of Bishamonten (the god of war).

But that doesn't mean he mobilized temple warriors en masse. In fact, he was a strong opponent of the Ikko-Ikki.

[Calax]

But that doesn't mean he mobilized temple warriors en masse. In fact, he was a strong opponent of the Ikko-Ikki.

Yeah... but it's still A semi-logical way to put in a bonus. Rather than just making something up out of thin air to put the faction on even ground with those who were more logical (the Takeda's Cav for example)

[SonOfCrusader76]

I was wondering whether the arrows are too powerful - could a Japanese arrow really go straight through a warrior the way it does in this game?

[ROFL Copter]

Arrows are often overpowered in Total War, and this might be the worst instance. I don't profess to know nearly as much about the era as I do Europe, but I am fairly certain that a single volley of arrows wouldn't cripple an army.