Shogun 2 - commentary and discussion

[Evil_Ewok]

Hail and well met all,

Perhaps this is heresy, although not on the scale of Horus, but does anyone own Shogun 2 yet?

I bought it on first day of release and have been playing nothing since. I do however, have a few comments to make and would be interested in the opinion of others.

1) the Map. Whilst it looks good and it's very nice to be able to spin around, the map just feels so limited and restricted when compared to the majesty that is the CoW map. Medieval 2 maps are just so much larger and, well, open, for a lack of a better word.

It seems in Shogun2 that you can't go into the mountain (at least I've not been able to), and even army movements on the map seem to be strangely limited by opposing armies.

2) battles. They seem to be much faster-flowing and almost have an arcade quality, which personally I think detracts from the sense of strategy and tactics that previous incarnations had. Also bridge defence levels are really poor in comparison and castle sieges, whilst novel, are just not as epic or satisfying.

3) I don't have a point 3 yet, but I'm sure will encounter something as I play through it.

Obviously these are my own opinions, and will be in contrast to others who believe Shogun to be superior. Whatever you think I'd be interested in hearing all opinions and constructive commentary in regard to Shogun 2.

So, be my guest.



EDIT - forgot to say Shogun is excellent, despite my two minor grumblings

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Shogun 2, in my opinion, is masterfully done just like CoW, TATW, Thera, Eras, and a whole slew of other mods are done. Here's what you can find in Shogun 2:

1) Impressive AI that knows when to strike and when to defend their homeland. They will attack unguarded cities without question and they will do everything to keep/retake any territory you have stolen from them. In battle, they use terrain effectively, taking cover in trees if infantry, uses hills to give their archers any advantage they can get, has their cavalry units skirt around your line to attack any missile units you may possess, and they don't send their general to his death! The AI also handles diplomacy fairly well, making fair offers and also accepting ones they see as beneficial at some point in time (just because you want trade rights, that doesn't mean that they want it, especially if the AI is trading with larger, richer, Clans). Also, you can no longer enter another Clan's territory unless you have military access or if you are at war. It doesn't matter if you are their ally or vassal, you need one of the two mentioned options in order to gain access to their lands.

2) The character RPG system is handled beautifully in this game. Every general "levels up" after a certain amount of XP (more if you win, less if you lose) allowing you to select traits that you think your Daimyo or general should have. Do you want your general to excel at sea? Select the "Admiral" trait and keep increasing its level. Do you want him to be a fierce warrior? Select traits that increase attack and defense. The possibilities cease only when you have no imagination left (you can't get every trait or every trait's level maxed out). The same system applies to agents, all with different skill trees.

3) Multiplayer has been revamped. No longer do you just select a random faction and lead armies of expendable pawns. You can now create your own faction! That's right, you can create your own Clan that increases in strength and wisdom with every battle. Your faction can be whatever colors you want, look like whatever you want (within reasonable limits of course), and have any symbol you want. Your Clan receives more unit types as you fight with them, growing along with you through your battles. You will feel an attachment form between you and your loyal samurai. The faction you create isn't just a faction you feel like playing, it is a part of you that is irreplaceable.

4) Battles, like Evil_Ewok said, are a lot faster in pace and a lot more heated in action. Units don't stand around, mindlessly hacking away at opponents like in Medieval 2 and they don't stand there when under fire like in Empire. Your troops' morale reflects a real soldier's mental discipline in battle. You won't find peasants (or Ashigaru) with the eager mindset when surrounded by hardened Katana Samurai nor will you see the enemy letting you shoot them in the face with arrows. They will run if casualties are high, your general's command low, and enemies are running about.

5) Arrows also do more damage in this game. They aren't absolute killers, but they aren't little inconveniences to your soldiers either. They are to be dealt with swiftly, but they aren't always the most dire threat to you (ninjas with "heat bombs" are). Fire arrows now have a recharge time, meaning they are now meant to be used strategically. They do much more damage than regular arrows and they fire just as fast, but you can only use them once every few minutes. They don't cause as much morale damage as in previous games, but they do cause quite a bit of fear. The real terrorizers are the "Whistling Arrows." These arrows make horrid, terrifying sounds that not only scare a unit half-to-death, but they also reduce the unit's defense and attack/movement speed (this will also happen to your units as well). There are other interesting projectiles that can be found in-game, but you're going to have to buy the game yourself if you want to know what they are.

[Krystoforos]

Lack of active pause...wtf Yeah now AI seems smarter o_O ok only on legendary level ufff

[Russian Gondor]

Problem about Shogun is the sprites look hideous, and you need a living creature unleashed from hell to run it or suffer.... green water!?!?!?

[The Holy Pilgrim]

Looks fine on my computer, heck it runs better than Medieval 2

Warning: Large Image

[randir14]

I think it has the best campaign features of the series, but the battles kind of suck due to the lack of unit variety, and the fact that they flee too quickly - I've never seen them regroup...every time a unit routs they run off the battle map. The units are a lot more responsive than past TW games though, they immediately follow orders and keep in formation.
I'm also not too fond of the graphics (other than the character models and 2D art). The new lighting system they use makes everything too dark, and the lack of AA makes the game look like crap.

[♔DARTH LEGO♔]

....and the best news is, guess who is going to mod it????

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[randir14]

Nice, I loved his Empire mod.

[Evil_Ewok]

<SALUTE>

@Holy Pilgrim
I agree with your comments regarding the rpg element of character progression, and the arrows, but I've also encountered many times wherein an enemy general stormed forward on his own to assume a defensive position on a hill, only for me to easily attack him with my cavalry or own generals and kill him. Other than that, the AI is good.

@Randir
I agree with you about the lack of variety in units, and also trying to see just who is who can be confusing in the thick of battle.

The game looks amazing on my laptop with every setting on max, and I love the little clips of my ninja's as they accomplish missions.


I wish all voices were in Japanese, even the advisers etc, as I think English with a stereotyped Japanese twang is offensive and fails at times.

Overall, comparing the unit and map variation of Shogun to CoW or other epic mods like LoTR Third Age makes Shogun look a bit limited, but I'm warming to the campaign.

[Guidrion]

I completly agree with the holy pilgrim.
I fell inlove with this game! It's also extremly more optimized than Empire:total war. It was laggy and the videos didn't played well on my computer where Shogun 2 works on high graphics with only one case of lags in several hours of gameplay.

The unit diversity is indeed low but logical.
I also just LOVE the improvment of the diplomacy and the behaviour. I have a pacific clan as my ally with superb relations and every time a conflict of treaties put their loyalty in question, they remained true friends and supported me (and not only in words: they took actions against my foes!)

green water!?!?!?

This is JAPAAAAAAN!

But the best thing in this game is this, the one character EVERY player will always remember:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Edit: grrr, need to spread reputation...

[The Holy Pilgrim]

I wish all voices were in Japanese, even the advisers etc, as I think English with a stereotyped Japanese twang is offensive and fails at times.

Well, I'm not sure if you can call it stereotyped if a real Japanese person is speaking

But I get your point and thank you for agreeing with my view on Shogun

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You too Guidrion

[boatie]

Shogun is pretty decent, but on Hard or above, if you love the army spamming in COW, you will love Shogun!

[Massive_attack]

I think that id love shogun 2, but there is just ONE feature that just CRIPPLES it for me:

Battles are limited to 20 vs 20 stack battles.

Total war is all about tons of troops on the battle map clashing in epic confrontations. RTW and MTWII both featured the ability to hand your own reinforcing troops to AI generals to command. Ill admit that i lost troops because of this, but whatever- having that extra punch in the battle won me several key victories time and time again, and this system was vastly improved with kingdoms. Then empire was released, and it all went to hell. Shogun II seems to be a big improvement over empire. as in, a VAAAAAST improvement, yet that "epic" feel is lost. I can have 40 stacks (an exageration, i know) but not be able to appreciate the glory of my armed forces through use of overwhelming numbers. Still, once patches and mods are released to fix the game and make it playable, ill buy it, and probably like it. The reinforcement system means, however, that i wont be playing it much at all. Roma Surrectum, CoW, Thera, Stainless Steel, and Bellum Crucis are all better than what shogun is, to be absoloutley frank.

Also, less important and reasonable given the setting, most of the troops being the same kind of sucks too. Again though, its understandable.

[EinBein]

I love the variety of troops in shogun 2. Not too much and not too less.

Also the morale system feels more realistic and the battles are much harder to win.

The only thing I really hate is the arcade feeling which has been in TW since empire. This is the thing that destroys my battle feeling... Hope they will step back in rome 2

[Evil_Ewok]

Having logged 33hrs of play over the last weekend and previous three evenings, I can safely say I am absorbed into this game, and I don't seem to be able to stop playing!

The diplomacy is much better than previous TW games, and the AI whilst still weak at times in battles, is much tougher on the campaign overall.

Would like to be able to name my units, not sure why CA removed that functionality at the 11th hour but whatever. Also the traits system is interesting, and example in point would be my most energetic, aggressive and successful general - my Daimyo - being labelled as lazy and a womaniser, go figure.

This weekend will be playing some coop campaign online, apparently it's superb, will let you know!

[boatie]

Coop is stable, fun and challenging (because you will now have someone to moan that you take to long to finish your turn, you have fought 3 battles during 1 turn, that they need to eat, go to the bathroom, or have sexual relations with the wife). Seriously, they did a great job with it.

[leonn]

wont play it because its on steam.if you live in an area which has poor internet connectivity,steam is pretty much unuseable so i and many others stopped buying tw games when empire came out. luckily i dont need stw2 as a very good mod is in development for rtw,and i have cow so ca can keep it just as i'll keep my money!

[Evil_Ewok]

wont play it because its on steam.if you live in an area which has poor internet connectivity,steam is pretty much unuseable so i and many others stopped buying tw games when empire came out. luckily i dont need stw2 as a very good mod is in development for rtw,and i have cow so ca can keep it just as i'll keep my money!

Yeah I hear you about steam, I personally dislike it to a very high degree, and did not realise Shogun 2 was steam and only found out when my pre-order arrived... much to my chagrin.

I did not buy Empire on principal that is was steam, and have not purchased any DoW2 games because they are steam. Not sure if you can play Shougn 2 offline as I've not tried.

[leonn]

Yeah I hear you about steam, I personally dislike it to a very high degree, and did not realise Shogun 2 was steam and only found out when my pre-order arrived... much to my chagrin.

I did not buy Empire on principal that is was steam, and have not purchased any DoW2 games because they are steam. Not sure if you can play Shougn 2 offline as I've not tried.

not sure but i think its the same as any other steam game.i played stw2 on a mates pc,looks pretty (no aa though for some reason) bai is still as juvenile as ever,still has the suicide generals bug. i dont think modding tools are going to be released so some of the more glaring inaccuracys will remain.

i dont hate steam,if you have good internet its fine (well,better than the pile of **** it was when hl2 came out!),i do object to not being given a choice of a steam free version for customers such as me.hell,i'd even pay more money for such a choice! as it is, ca\sega have effectivly cut me and others out of playing the latest games,short of moving house. so,thanks for that ca.

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Singleplayer-
1. pull the same number again by not alowing us to play all the clans (Rome,Empire,Nap)
Multiplayer-
1. buggy like in the hell
2. you are not able to choose how many pts. you wish to play with
3. the talent tree is all so bugged
4. never been able to play a sea battle (only once dont know how ^^)

To sum it up.... its fun! Becouse its total war!
But its hard to get by all that buggy !
And I love the multiplayer belive me, so I try aleast(Dow II ^^)

Ps. im all so looking forward to Total War: The Greek Cities States/ The Hegemonies War (play the multiplayer and you will maybe get me ^^)