Yari Ashigaru being owned by Bow Ashigaru. In melee.

[Aklis]

I just started a playthrough as Hojo, and, during the first fight with the enemy stack on your territory, my 150 yari ashigaru just got routed by a group of bow ashigaru in melee. What the hell is going on?

[Anduin1]

What difficulty? I've had this happen too. As my Yari charge, their morale starts to plummet down to yellow from green.

[Googoo24]

It could be difficulty, unit upgrades, experience, battlefield conditions, etc.

[Slaists]

It could be difficulty, unit upgrades, experience, battlefield conditions, etc.

also, the general, presence of monks, etc.

[Aklis]

Playing on Hard. Tried the battle again, the archers pretty much held their own against my Yari Samurai as well. What the has CA been up to?

[Slaists]

Playing on Hard. Tried the battle again, the archers pretty much held their own against my Yari Samurai as well. What the has CA been up to?

Well, on hard battle difficulty, vanilla militia could shoot your line infantry into pieces in a straight shootout in ETW... I guess, the same has been replicated here. So, don't expect to win any straight one on one fights on hard difficulty...

[Sgt.Valenzuela]

Playing on Hard. Tried the battle again, the archers pretty much held their own against my Yari Samurai as well. What the has CA been up to?

has to be random. Also possible the enemy general may have a trait that could cause lower morale among your men? but it is a little odd they can hold against Yari Samurai. Play on hard myself and my Yari Ashigaru are doing well in holding there own. However I did loose 3 units of Yari to a General's unit on foot not on horse back.

[Greve Af Göteborg]

Too many decisive factors are present in this equation to get a direct answer.

[Baleurion]

Too many decisive factors are present in this equation to get a direct answer.

Not quite, i noticed this in the demo too.
No generals, nothing else. Yari vs Bow. Bow always wins in melee, either by outright slaughtering the Yari with their tiny daggers, or by routing them.

I always thought of the Yari as kind of phalanxes or at least the equivalent of spearmen in M2TW or ETW, you know, soldiers that as a unified group can slay poor infantry by simply poking them with their long spears. Guess i gotta re-think them as pure anti-cav / defense-wall units.

I have no idea why. And thats why I'm going exclusively Katana on my new campaign, see no reason for Yari tbh, except anti-cavalry. And the yari wall is nice in defences.

[Xatham]

do you put them in spear wall formation? when I do, my ashigaru can stand up to yari samurai

[Andy06r]

Not quite, i noticed this in the demo too.
No generals, nothing else. Yari vs Bow. Bow always wins in melee, either by outright slaughtering the Yari with their tiny daggers, or by routing them.

I always thought of the Yari as kind of phalanxes or at least the equivalent of spearmen in M2TW or ETW, you know, soldiers that as a unified group can slay poor infantry by simply poking them with their long spears. Guess i gotta re-think them as pure anti-cav / defense-wall units.

I have no idea why. And thats why I'm going exclusively Katana on my new campaign, see no reason for Yari tbh, except anti-cavalry. And the yari wall is nice in defences.

The 'no idea why' is called 'no one in japan uses a shield.' The only way to defend yourself is to parry or dodge blows, and for yari ashigaru in their tight formations with 'meh' combat abilities, they suck at both. When I think of Japanese ashigaru, I think of a bunch of eager dudes that know how to stab each other but don't know how to protect themselves. In medieval, your spear militia could hold out cause they had high shield values. In Shogun, you essentially have the same militia unit but you took away their only defensive tool cause they aren't proficient enough with their sword to stay alive for long. I've found the #1 factor to routing is being outnumbered locally. If you can stretch a long line and get your Ashigaru in one on one fight they do fine, but If you send them after 2 archer units that clump up its suddenly 80 vs 240 and they don't like that. I think 3 to 1 is the magic number where they panic and run, 2 to 1 makes them start flashing.

I use Ashigaru as meat to extend a battle front to keep my samurai from being overwhelmed (on hard). Also take a look at the charge value of yari ashigaru - it's a measily 1. They basically stick their yari/sword straight forward and pray someone runs into it, and you can see that in their fighting animations. Most of my ashigaru out kill what they lose (against other ashigaru) with a few unlucky units getting massacred.

Yari Ashigaru have a melee attack of 3 and defense of 2, Archers have attack 2 and defense 1. It's actually a pretty even match up.

[Ferdiad]

Yari are unreal, they should own Bow ashigaru.

[ParaB]

Yari are unreal, they should own Bow ashigaru.

They do. I've done some tests via custom battles and Yari Ashigaru rout bow Ashigaru every time. On hard.

[Caelifer_1991]

In my Oda campaign on Legendary difficulty my yari ashigaru have had no problem whatsoever dealing with bow ashigaru in melee... merely getting into melee with them first without dying from the hail of arrows

[DukeD]

My Yari can up 2 units of Bow Ashigaru

[Bylandt]

My yari ashigaru were also beaten in melee by yari bowmen. No leaders, monks or any outside factors. And very few casulaties before melee contact was made.

[Cadmium77]

The bowmen shift over to swords to skirmish, no? Swords trump spears. Try those Yari Ashigaru against light cavalry. They should perform better with them. I've had really cowardly Yari Ashigaru perform surprisingly well with even well equipped cavalry. (Horses don't like a forest of bristling spikes) I'd keep YA for flank protection against cavalry for the most part.

Remember; these are peasant rabble with a bit of training. Their yari might not even have metal tips...they might just be sharpened bamboo poles.

Think of how the Seven Samurai trained the peasants to be Yari Ashigaru..



Check out the sharpened bamboo Yari the peasant weilds;

[nekhbet]

The bowmen shift over to swords to skirmish, no? Swords trump spears. Try those Yari Ashigaru against light cavalry. They should perform better with them. I've had really cowardly Yari Ashigaru perform surprisingly well with even well equipped cavalry. (Horses don't like a forest of bristling spikes) I'd keep YA for flank protection against cavalry for the most part.

Remember; these are peasant rabble with a bit of training. Their yari might not even have metal tips...they might just be sharpened bamboo poles.

It's funny though, because the yari ashigaru in the game seem to have katanas on their side, they just refrain from using them despite their supposed superiority against certain things. Also, ashigaru are not peasants, they're semi-professional troops.

[Lugiahua]

It's funny though, because the yari ashigaru in the game seem to have katanas on their side, they just refrain from using them despite their supposed superiority against certain things. Also, ashigaru are not peasants, they're semi-professional troops.

I thought that they use the sword if you didn't use spear wall formation...

[Empirion0]

Ashigaru literally means foot soldiers. In Japanese battles they are meats shields and screens to soak up arrows and protect flanks. Since their only purpose is to die in a horrible, bloody and mangled heap (all in the name of honor, which won't be so bad, right?) in the openings of battle so that their superior samurai can climb over their corpses and achieve victory for their clan. Due to their purpose in battle, they are conscripted in mass number from peasantry and given minimal training. In terms of Dojo ranking, Ashigaru are probably your white and green belts, while Samurai are at least Sho-dan black belts.

Oh, one thing people need to understand also, is that in Japan "Peasantry" are not those mud-splattered, flea-ridden rodents that we are familiar with in Europe, but rather a class of non-warriors. That means any one from farmers to scholars to rich merchants are consider "Peasants" if they do not follow Bushido and have military training.

Due to how the society and military function back in Sengoku Japan (heck, before Meiji Restoration), Ashigaru are no often than not, appear on battlefield with severe morale handicap and will try to run at the slightest chance under a poor commander.