Handling Conversion to Christianity

[orbster556]

Dear All:

I'm about 6 hours into my first campaign (Date/Normal) and am really enjoying the game thus far. Although I never played the original Shogun--I was somewhat young and was yet to fully appreciate strategy--I have played all of CA's offering since Medieval--with special emphasis on Rome and Medieval 2.

Anyway, it 1665 in campaign, I have roughly one dozen provinces and receive an income of around 4~5k/turn. I have minimal garrison presence in each province and have three metsuke in provinces to increase overall happiness. Looking to explore the different features of the game, I converted to Christianity. After converting, I built two or three chapels in various provinces and also tore down the Buddhist temples; additionally, I lowered the tax rate to the lowest possible and even excluded especially problematic provinces. After a few turns, however, the majority of my provinces were upset and, shortly thereafter, rebel armies popped up. Moreover, the problem is getting worse as more and more provinces are getting 'red-faced'. Especially problematic is the city in which I built the Nambam Quarter.

I was wondering whether there is anything that I'm doing wrong or whether the difficulties I am experiencing are simply the difficulties that accompany converting to Christianity. If so, I have two additional questions:

1) Is it worth it to make the conversion?
2) Is there anything I can do that will smooth out the transition?

Thanks, in advance, for any help you might be able to provide.

Regards,

[bratislavd]

I didnt try it myself, but i recon u should convert on start, or somewhat eary, so u can convert ur regions. If u double click on a town, there is religion tab in the top left corner it tells u what religion is the population

[Hullucinate]

Why would you convert without having at least 50% of your population Christian? Best you can do now is play defensively and kill any rebels that pop up.

[orbster556]

Why would you convert without having at least 50% of your population Christian? Best you can do now is play defensively and kill any rebels that pop up.

I just wanted to explore some of the games different features/options. Moreover, I wasn't sure if it provided any tangible benefits.

At this point I am unsure whether I am going to continue with the conversion experiment. Perhaps it might be more prudent to re-load to a pre-conversion save, gain more experience with the game and try conversion in a later campaign. Still unsure though.

Thanks to all who offered some thoughts.

Regards,

[hitokiri2486]

I just wanted to explore some of the games different features/options. Moreover, I wasn't sure if it provided any tangible benefits.

At this point I am unsure whether I am going to continue with the conversion experiment. Perhaps it might be more prudent to re-load to a pre-conversion save, gain more experience with the game and try conversion in a later campaign. Still unsure though.

Thanks to all who offered some thoughts.

Regards,

Like the other guy said, it's important to either convert a) early when you have only a few provinces or b) when there's a sizeable Christian population. Preferably, you should convert when a) and b) are true; Shimazu is probably the best clan for this, since you can build the Nanban trading port pretty early in the game.

If you handle it right, at most you'll have a year of low taxation. If you need to, you may want to try lifting taxes completely for the most rebellious provinces. You should also note that you can send priests on a mission into your cities; right click on them and the mission to maintain peace/stability will show up, and will increase the happiness of that city as well as its rate of religious conversion. Very handy.


I converted Shimazu after I finished conquering the island I was on, and had to keep taxes low for a year, but things were smooth sailing after that; the key was keeping up a robust trade income, which is possible by making as many trade agreements before you convert, otherwise it will be much harder. But after conversion, most clans will keep trading with you anyway, so plan ahead.

The great advantage of converting to Christianity are the much cheaper musket ashigaru and cannons that are available much earlier than other factions can get them. For musket ashigaru you have to go quite a ways down the tech tree; I'm not even sure if cannons are recruitable without a Nanban port. Both are powerful units if you know how to use them carefully, and can make conquering provinces a lot easier. Musket ashigaru are also murderous on the defense!

The downside, I think, is that you can't recruit monk units. At least I don't think you can, but someone will have to confirm that. So, if you're playing the Uesugi, don't convert!

[Uncleburt]

Like the other guy said, it's important to either convert a) early when you have only a few provinces or b) when there's a sizeable Christian population. Preferably, you should convert when a) and b) are true; Shimazu is probably the best clan for this, since you can build the Nanban trading port pretty early in the game.

If you handle it right, at most you'll have a year of low taxation. If you need to, you may want to try lifting taxes completely for the most rebellious provinces. You should also note that you can send priests on a mission into your cities; right click on them and the mission to maintain peace/stability will show up, and will increase the happiness of that city as well as its rate of religious conversion. Very handy.


I converted Shimazu after I finished conquering the island I was on, and had to keep taxes low for a year, but things were smooth sailing after that; the key was keeping up a robust trade income, which is possible by making as many trade agreements before you convert, otherwise it will be much harder. But after conversion, most clans will keep trading with you anyway, so plan ahead.

The great advantage of converting to Christianity are the much cheaper musket ashigaru and cannons that are available much earlier than other factions can get them. For musket ashigaru you have to go quite a ways down the tech tree; I'm not even sure if cannons are recruitable without a Nanban port. Both are powerful units if you know how to use them carefully, and can make conquering provinces a lot easier. Musket ashigaru are also murderous on the defense!

The downside, I think, is that you can't recruit monk units. At least I don't think you can, but someone will have to confirm that. So, if you're playing the Uesugi, don't convert!

How would you recommend using gunpowder? I liked using it in the original shogun but it was more for atmosphere and immersion, I never really found it to be particularly useful.

Also, after playing Darthmod and Napoleon the puffy whisps of smoke and little pops when the muskets go off in this just seem abit whimsical in comparison.

[FaveDave]

Everyone is forgetting the main reason to convert to christianity in the game: big bonuses to learning The Chi Arts! (and the great ships and cannons).

Those time-consuming Chi arts that let you build the big farms and massive markeplaces that bring in big food and lotsa money are necessary. But it takes forever to learn them.

The church gives a 5% bonus, and the cathedral goes all the way up to 25%! Buddhist buildings start at 3% and only go up to 15%.

Build a bunch of chapels, etc., and you'll be climbing up the Chi Arts much more quickly, and getting more money.

Plus there is NO OTHER WAY to get CANNONS except from a christian type port.

I easily handle conversions. After you first convert, there's trouble, but just lay off the taxes for a few turns and build chapels. Recruit priests and let them help convert. Put priests in your army and they will help as you conquer. It's not a big deal.

And I have plenty of trading partners because I took 3 out the 5 trading spots. Everyone trades with me just fine.

[-iceblade^]

i found converting as Shimazu early on was a bad idea as i had the same issue and died soon after...

IMO, the benefits don't really seem worth it, as i converted as Chosokabe and i don't have the ability to trade with anyone because my Daimyo is a dishonourable clown and the Christianity makes everyone unfriendly. it means it's basically me against the world...

i wouldn't do it...

[dutch81]

I noticed the Ito Clan (purple on Kyushu) converted to Christianity they were getting killed by the AI (down to one province) a few turns later they are back to three provinces and giving a good account of themselves. I send my Buddhist monk over to try to get the rabble riled up but the population is already 100% Christian ... how the heck did manage that so quick?

[wolfshart79]

If it is any conciliation, in my Shimazu campaign the Shino converted then after about 30 turns decided it wasn't working (after I kicked them off my island) and turned back to the true path to enlightenment...

[mendoksou]

I had very little trouble converting early on as Shimazu. The only differences I noticed, though, are:
-You get access to a nice type of ship with cannon.
-Muskets are cheaper.
-You can goad everyone into wars more easily... assuming you want that.
-Wreck havoc with your missionaries? I haven't really tried that yet.

What I suggest is wait until you have a break from wars for a bit, then split your major armies up/recruit tons of yari ashigaru for the repression aspect (and for defense when that fails). Exempt taxes where needed. Other than that, you seemed to be doing it right. It helps to have a core group of trade partners/vassals so that you are less likely to spark a bunch of wars at once.

[Sir Robin]

I noticed the Ito Clan (purple on Kyushu) converted to Christianity they were getting killed by the AI (down to one province) a few turns later they are back to three provinces and giving a good account of themselves. I send my Buddhist monk over to try to get the rabble riled up but the population is already 100% Christian ... how the heck did manage that so quick?

Nanban's ports alone have a coversion rate of 3.5% per turn. Add the .5% from owning clan's religion. Toss the 1% per missionary. Plus what the churches you build can add. Then throw the up to 5% that various character skill ups and traits can add and...

Do it right and you could be converting a province by around 10% per turn.

[Jack-El]

The best part of converting to Christianity has to be the Nanban Trade Ships that come with the foreign quarter. One of those can wipe out most enemy fleets and they can hold the trade points easily without further backup. While they do tend towards the expensive side (upkeep of 250 normal, 200 Mori - ~1500 purchase price) they are well worth it as they can perform the duties of a normal trade ship as well as an entire guard convoy. Wakko pirates are like insects running up against a car's windshield.

[Kaiserjohan]

Depends on what difficulty you play on. If you play on Legendary, don't - you WILL die.

[Inhuman One]

It seems completely rediculous that chi arts are mastered faster by converting to christianity, if anything it should be slower considering that these clans reject their heritage.

I think they should have allowed some european mercenary units for christian converts, that would be a better way to balance the lack of warrior monks than giving a huge boost in chi research.

[-iceblade^]

It seems completely rediculous that chi arts are mastered faster by converting to christianity, if anything it should be slower considering that these clans reject their heritage.

I think they should have allowed some european mercenary units for christian converts, that would be a better way to balance the lack of warrior monks than giving a huge boost in chi research.

This

[tarvu]

This

The "Chi" branch merely represents civic technology. I'm sorry but not everything in that tree is Buddhist.. in fact very little of it is.

By trading with the nanban they get research bonuses in civic technology... not hugely unrealistic especially considering how much of the tree has to do with trade which would logically be helped. I fail to see how the Chi tree has much to do with heritage when you look at it as a whole.

[Inhuman One]

The "Chi" branch merely represents civic technology. I'm sorry but not everything in that tree is Buddhist.. in fact very little of it is.

By trading with the nanban they get research bonuses in civic technology... not hugely unrealistic especially considering how much of the tree has to do with trade which would logically be helped. I fail to see how the Chi tree has much to do with heritage when you look at it as a whole.

So in other words, Christians are supposed to be more civilized than Buddhists?

[Jack-El]

So in other words, Christians are supposed to be more civilized than Buddhists?

More like the improved relations with European traders allows for more ideas to make their way into the clan.

[Stil]

More like the improved relations with European traders allows for more ideas to make their way into the clan.

Yup - I couldn't agree more with this statement. The stupidest trader will deliver more in terms of fresh ideas than the wisest hermit can, hands down