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Thread: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

  1. #141
    Miles
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by Conanophile View Post
    SO how do you deal with the Country Divide (otherwise known as everyone Gets the Human Player)?
    I depends on the situation you're in, but using ninjas to split up their armies, setting ambushes to whittle them down, and making vassals that force them to withdraw are all tools to bust up incoming armies.

  2. #142

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    I had a similar experience to most of you, in that I defeated the Oda army but was beaten to Owari by the Saito Clan.

    I decided to turtle at my capitol and build up my economy along with an ashigaru army. I secured several lucrative trade agreements and researched mostly Chi. I formed a 4-way alliance with Takeda, Hojo and Satoma(?), meaning I was surrounded by allies with no-one to attack.
    I also managed to secure the northern trade port (near the Date) one of the southern ones, meaning my economy was quickly growing.

    The Imagawa garrison to the east was too strong for me to seige, so luckily after a few more turns they moved out and attacked me. I easily defended with minimal casualties and went on the counter attack, taking both Imagawa provinces and wiping them out. From here I managed to snatch Kai from the Date after the main Date army left it fairly undefended (they were way over-extended into our alliances territory).
    All the while I keep a strong garrison at my capital to protect that approach while I expanded East.

    I then secured military access with allies and marched an army to the coast near the Honma island, sailed them over the channel and took the island, wiping out the Honma (who were enemies of our alliance). The Date have been wiped out by the Hojo and the Satoma are betraying me, but Takeda and Hojo sided with me against them luckily.

    Im now cautiously expanding towards Kyoto while expecting to be betrayed by our mega-alliance. (sitting on 160,000 koku, I think the year is 1563).

  3. #143
    EmperorJulian's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    I tried my hand with the Tokugawa faction last night and interestingly ran into identical problems of the type mentioned here. In fact, I ended up in a situation much like XMackieX faced. I managed to defeat the Oda, then saw their province taken by Saito. Later, the expansion of Takeda, Hojo and Hattori took most all of the potential expansion routes away from me, while Imagawa was hostile but unwilling to attack me. I set about developing trade, securing three routes (sadly at great distance from my port) and using my agents to make my Liege Lord's life as difficult as possible. Ultimately the "wall" I ran into was that the campaign stagnated, no one attacked me, everyone was my friend and Imagawa was intact and allied with the same Clans. There just appeared to be no means of starting a conflict and even if I did overrun the Imagawa I'd be a 3 province minor state surrounded by very powerful neighbors. Kind of found myself frustrated by having massive piles of unused cash, a sizable army and little to show for it.

    I've found the various ideas and strategies listed here to be interesting, though the ultimate enemy of the Tokugawa seems to be time. Waiting on the Imagawa to attack can be a costly proposition (as I've seen), yet attacking them yourself can have intense and fear reaching political ramifications that aren't very pleasant to deal with either. I'm not sure that trying to bribe the Oda army is all that "organic" of a way to do things as I've never been able to accomplish that with my starting metsuke and so I imagine we'd be talking about a multiple save/reload scenario playing out there. I thought about pursuing the "go all in" method of attacking the Oda's only settlement right away, but that strategy has some significant and obvious draw backs as well. I think when I try my campaign again I'm going to go with one of the other suggestions I saw here which would be to lure the Imagawa into attacking while hiding most of my forces in a nearby forest. The AI likes to go after weak targets and if I can get my overlords to attack within the first 10 turns or so that would probably be soon enough to make some good progress.

    I wonder why CA did not add in some kind of mission or "quest" if you will for the Tokugawa to break free of their vassalage. It's such a necessary component of getting anywhere with this faction yet the game's only suggestion is to go to war and take the honor/relations hit. Of course it's even more amusing that the game goes so far to suggest that you expand by attacking a faction other than the Oda or Imagawa. Quite a useless bit of guidance that is since you can't independently declare war. Wonder why that particular gem was left in the final game.
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  4. #144
    Gaizokubanou's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Here is what I did to capture Oda's territory on VH...

    First, defeat the small stack in your territory and let most of the units in that stack route. On second turn, Oda will send out another stack. Just bypass this and go kill its town which has no unit whatsoever. I pulled this off 4 times already, so I'm not sure if my Saito is being lazy, or if you guys are killing both of Oda's stacks.

    Ok expanding upon that opening, I found a way to pretty consistently end up well without betraying Imagawa.

    Infastructure: tech up right half of the chi line and build up a market on Owari and upgrade castle on your hometown (raze market and build stable & yari dojo for yari cav).

    Diplomacy: Have Imagawa break alliance with either Takeda, Hojo, or both by trading them infinite military access. Also make sure Imagawa isn't trading with either of the two. This will pretty much kill Imagawa. If Imagawa by some miracle survive and actually break out, it's not the end of the world because...

    Ikko Ikki and Hattori. These two guys hate everyone. They often ally up so make sure you break their alliance and make them hate each other as well. Ikko Ikki tends to get stronger than Hattori a bit faster, so you will end up getting attacked by Ikko Ikki around turn 12 ~ 15 right after they take Saito. Be sure you have a stack ready by that time and get ready to kill off about 2 stacks. You can snatch up Saito province pretty easily, but odds are you won't be able to hold onto it. Don't worry! Let it go. Let the AI recap. Don't risk your entire game on that province this early. Just keep killing AI's stacks and after 4 stacks or so it'll run out of steam from fighting every other AIs then you will be able to take and hold Saito and maybe more, or call it a day and strike for peace while you build up that land as well with Grain Exchange.

    Also keep an eye out on Hattori at all times. Chances are, they will be fighting other AIs if you keep breaking up their alliances, but you don't want to be caught off guard and get swamped by Hattori/Ikko attacks. Trade agreement with them should give vision of their adjacent province. If units start to gather there, you know Hattori is up to no good.

    If Hattori attacks you before Ikko Ikki, things will be lot harder because it's easier to appease Hattori than Ikko. So try your best to keep Hattori diplomatically vulnerable so they don't get any funny idea about attack you.
    Last edited by Gaizokubanou; December 24, 2011 at 02:24 AM.

  5. #145

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    First time playing as the Tokugawa and boy is it a lot different than the other clans! I'm working my way through each clan on H/H. I'm on my 2nd attempt with this clan as the first one ended in disaster.

    I didn't come here for tips first but just tried my own luck. I attacked the army in my territory on the 1st turn and wiped them out. I then attacked the remaining army on the 2nd turn and defeated them and got them to retreat into the castle. 3rd turn had me siege then wipe them out. As I'm pretty weak at this point and Imagawa is building up their forces on my border looking ready to attack I gift them some money for 3 turns to give me breathing room.

    I'm then to the point of having 1.6 stacks, the cotton trading node and I've got some good money coming in. Then the Kitabatake (sp?) start threatening me all over the place. I figure no big deal as I have over 1000+ more men, our experience is pretty equal and both our armies are mostly made up of ashigaru. Piece of cake I'm thinking. So they attack and siege my castle in Owari. I bring up my 2nd smaller army from our home province and attack. Now I've got the high ground, superior numbers and pretty equal experience and troops. Despite all that, I get my butt handed to me. I even tried reloading it a couple of times and there was nothing that I could do to win that battle. It was like the game had decided I was going to lose and there was nothing I could do about it! I manage to hold onto the castle despite losing and then the Shoni invade from Kyushu with a big stack full of veteran troops of samurai archers and katana. Needless to say the Tokugawa were not long for this world.

    Now on my 2nd attempt I did a similar thing. Wiped out the army in my territory and then the 2nd army in Owari. After reading in here I was expecting someone on the 3rd turn to swoop in and take Owari (which I was fine with as it would give me breathing room from those pesky Kitebatake dudes) but no one did. I then capture it next turn. Now Imagawa is pretty much leaving me alone like others here complain. I'm on year 1554 in the Spring and Takeda and Hojo are both weak and feeble with only one province each. Imagawa has 2, the Kitebatake are wiped out, it's a very different situation that I've never quite seen before with different players getting the upper hand. I'm focusing on building up my economy as much as possible and have started to piss off the Imagawa with my ninja and monk sabotaging farms and ports while trying to incite riots to see if I can get them to attack. After being frustrated beyond belief with my first attempt, this one has been quite interesting and will be fun to see where it will go. Cool clan. Do they have especially weak ashigarus though? It sure seemed it last campaign!
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  6. #146
    Gaizokubanou's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Tokugawa ashigarus are same as others.

  7. #147
    Semisalis
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    I've been sending 6 super ninjas (3 of which 6 stars, maxed out in assassinations with as many assassination retainers i could get) and a 4 star geisha to utterly destroy whatever clan is dumb enough to declare war on me.

    It was tough at first, but after building up my ninjas and navy, i took 3 trading nodes and have some great allies to the east that have never turned on me.

    Whenever a clan declares war on me and send an army my way, i send my ninjas. Then, oh boy, does all hell break loose. I constantly subvert them with one ninja, have another assassinate every general in the army, then send my other ninjas around to their territories and assassinate every member of the clan before I launch my attack. If I can, I keep their army where it is while I sneak around, open the gates and take a nearly empty castle. So long as I'm not engaged in more than 2 pressing wars at once, I can wreak so much havok with ninja's that (adding to some ninja tech I researched) have 85-95% chance of completion.

    Since gaining this super ninja force, I've only had one get killed. When that happened, I recruited another from Iga, where he started out as a 3 star, built up his assassinating skills and posted him outside Kyoto for 2 years where he spent each turn assassinating the Shogun (there's always a new 1-star shogun after the last one dies) to train him up to 4 stars.

    Straight up running the show behind the scenes. There's nothing the AI can do.

  8. #148

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Tokuwaga on VH/VH

    Like the clan selection description says, Starting Conflict/Position: Hard

    You HAVE to take Owari, it might take retry's. Sometimes you might be able to bribe the initial oda army, sometimes you might not.

    Once you take oda, focus all your spending around recruiting units. That is, don't make buildings unless you have occupied all recruiting slots and still have some money left. I recommend bows, since they are very cost effective. Why? You WILL be attacked, the question is who will.

    Keep on top of diplomacy EVERY SINGLE TURN. Sometime the AI losing an army, an agent, etc; will make it open up to negotiations. The takaeda, hojo, and ikko were vs me. I defeated the takaeda army marching, I opened up diplomacy and peace request was high, I even made them my vassal, pay me some money, trade, and join war vs my enemies.

    You pretty much have to rebel against the imawaga, don't worry about the diplomatic hit though, through most of the mid game I was trading with everyone, everyone was on very friendly and had 2 alliances. Only a few were dumb enough to attack me.

    And unless you are extremely luck, you will suffer some loses, the question is how much. I lost owari and my capital while I was took the last imawaga province, I went back to defeat the 3-4 stacks of combined clan forces on an epic siege defense, hojo took an imawaga province so I had to go back... you get the idea. Again, don't ever stop making units every single turn unless you have transitioned of the initial conflict phase.

    This also goes without saying but, you need to be really good at the "game", and this is for any difficulty. When I rebelled vs the imawaga, I had 1 stack half of it bows, defeat 2 of their imawaga stacks in a reinforcing battle, taking minimal losses, and that's why my stepping stone into that game.

    Right now im 155 turns in raiding through realm divide. Defending provinces against 4-8 stacks has become the norm.

    SO...
    Units
    Rebel against/betray the imawaga
    Diplomacy every turn.

  9. #149

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    This has definitely been my most challenging and frustrating campaign that I've played to date! I've enjoyed it a bit but I'm often surprised at how much action there is that never seems to stop. Just when I think I can take a breath and regroup a little one of my allies stabs me in the back.

    I've just had a very perplexing battle that I'd like your feedback on. I posted this in the main forum area but figured I might as well post it here too:

    Okay, I;'m playing a Tokugawa Hard campaign (actually one of the most challenging I've had to date!) and just had a siege battle defense that left me scratching my head! I'm in a fortress in Kai and Takeda has stabbed me in the back and declared war and is sieging this fortress. I've got less troops than he does but am confident that I will repel this attack and win. I put all my troops on the upper level with archers and ashigaru galore. One thing I notice while setting up is that there doesn't appear to be a flag by the fortress where I usually park my General but I don't give it much thought. Things are set up and I start the battle. We both have those flaming catapult things (forgot the "M" name ) and I also have a canon and we start to lob artillery at each other while Takeda maneuvers his troops a bit. One thing that looks really odd is that most all of his troops start to converge on the right side of the fortress where 2 groups of ashigaru have climbed the wall to capture a flag. I'm pelting them with arrows but they don't move at all. I'm starting to move more troops to that side as most of his army starts to go there when all of a sudden game over decisive defeat! WTF!? I yell. How on earth did I lose when they only captured one lower level flag? Is this a bug? I thought the goal was always to capture the one on the upper level by the building, which isn't there in this fortress. I'm obviously not going to keep this result as it is totally wrong but I've never seen this before. Has anyone else had this happen in Kai, or anywhere else for that matter? How the heck am I supposed to know which is the flag I'm supposed to protect under this circumstance? Any help that you can give is much appreciated! Thanks.
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  10. #150

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Hard Mode as Tokugawa. Bribed the army, beat them, and then settled back. It seems that every time you take Oda then you get bum rushed by the Imagawa. If you build up your forces so that you're roughly equal to them (See you diplomacy - once I had my forces at Moderate) the Imagawa pretty much stopped building up forces on my border. And then the Ikko came down, declared war on me, and the Imagawa went north through my lands. I was able to nick Owarmi (or whatever) before the Imagawa. They simply went north and took that settlement. Soon the Hattori went at me, so I quickly nicked the coastal region there. All through this the Imagawa kept small forces around my settlements that were at risk, they were total bros.

    And then, for no foreseeable reason, the Hojo declared war on the Imagawa. Now it looks like I'm going to lose my capital because all of my forces are fighting the Hattori, and Imagawa can't help because they're fighting the Ikkos.

    This effect I like to call the 'Curse of Alfonzo' - EVERY time I ally with someone in this game, they suddenly become weak and die. As Uesagi I had alliances with the Hojo and the Takeda, and they both got roundly beaten down by the Satomi and whatever the Takeda were fighting. It was like half their regions just revolted for no reason. It was hilarous, and enabled me to turtle a bit longer and build up a monk army.

  11. #151

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    I always found it easier to expand into the east to the Hojo lands, take Kai and Shinano and then press onwards towards Kyoto. On occasion though the Ikko Ikki are too much of a threat to ignore or they declare war on me anway as a Tokugawa player will almost always own the Oda/Saito lands.
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  12. #152
    DeMolay's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Yes i think most Tokugawa players would invade Owari and Mino at the beggining , probably the most logical and easiest way , although in some occasions on harder difficulties , it means having Ikko Ikkis and Hattori (usually ) as foes earlier than expected , Ikko Ikkis can be pretty brutal at the beggining

    I tried a different approach the last few times i played a Tokugawa campaign , it requires more patience and turtling but can be quite fun too :

    basically i defeated the Oda invading army and then made peace and trade with them (they should accept once they are "feeble" and you are "weak" or "moderate" in the diplomacy menu , otherwise just siege Owari with more men and they will accept ) .

    Then a few turns later when you have an army ready to fight , you "request join war " in the diplomacy menu , as Oda should still be at war with Imagawa , so you join the war against the Imagawa , you shouldn't have any penalty in diplomacy and will not be at war with Takeda/Hojo . Then you make an alliance with Oda , like in real history . Although , you have to be careful to prevent Oda to have military access on your lands yet , cause they may capture Totomi or Suruga at your place and box you , you don't want that to happen

    the cool thing about this strategy is that you get Totomi and then Suruga quite early if you win the war , and those regions are easy to defend and rich if you make sure your provinces are always in positive growth , it's a perfect launchpad for an invasion of the Takeda or Hojo domain , or both ultimately .

    The other good point is that you don't have to worry about your western border , so you push in one direction , and quite often your Oda allies become quite powerful (especially if you give them money from time to time once you are rich ) and steamroll westward . Sometime they don't though , and you have to help them

    Since Oda are long standing allies , you have access to their territory eventually , so there is no problem for capturing Kyoto , you just have to make sure you always marry with them and have more than 200 in relationships with them before triggering realm divide
    Last edited by DeMolay; February 17, 2012 at 12:23 PM.

  13. #153
    MJWilliams's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by DeMolay View Post
    Then a few turns later when you have an army ready to fight , you "request join war " in the diplomacy menu , as Oda should still be at war with Imagawa , so you join the war against the Imagawa , you shouldn't have any penalty in diplomacy and will not be at war with Takeda/Hojo .
    +1

    Great tactic for breaking up your vassalage to Imagawa. You can also offer them indefinite military access for 3k koku or so (before you do the above). That way you cripple them from mustering any quick defense and get a nice war chest
    "My life is no longer my own, my word worthless.
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  14. #154
    Noif de Bodemloze's Avatar The Protector of Art
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by MJWilliams View Post
    +1

    Great tactic for breaking up your vassalage to Imagawa. You can also offer them indefinite military access for 3k koku or so (before you do the above). That way you cripple them from mustering any quick defense and get a nice war chest
    I forgot Imagawa when I took Owari. I grow my army to 1 full army to plan attack to Saito or Kitakabe, but I forgot Imagawa army. Imagawa looked me so badly and they saw me as enemies so they decided charge to my capital. Thanks I got my army from Owari to my capital to defend. Imagawa scared and decided raid harbor and farms. Next round I rolled their main army and walked over imagawa area to myself. Sametime Takeda and Hojo breaked their alliance and goes to war. I decided join ally with Takeda. Now I must choose Hojo or Saito+Kitakabe for my enemy, so will see.

  15. #155

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    I finish Tokugawa in Legendary Difficulty and Domination Campaign(It's pretty difficult I must say).

    Anyway the tactic I used is different. I destroyed the Oda's field army in the 1st turn then captured Owari in the 2nd turn. After that I embargoed Imagawa's alliance with Takeda and Hojo. I left Owari with a full banner and since Imagawa has other fishes to fry(Takeda and Hojo) I managed to hold my diplomatic relations to Imagawa as a vassal. I am confident that no one will attack me from the north because I have trade rights with Kitakabe and Saito and both their temperament are "Peaceful" and they are busy at war with themselves to actually attack me. After that I noticed that Imagawa is already at war with Hojo so it gave me the right to declare war with them as well. I declared war with Hojo and took Izu but there was a problem at my northern frontier which was Owari. The Ikko expanded and crushed the Saito to my north. I knew I didn't have a chance against the Ikko so I paid them for peace. after that I took Musashi from the Hojo and since it was early game the Hojo was quite weak and was crushed by our Coalition. The Ikko was pushed back in the North by the Kitakabe and the Ikko pushed westward. The Kitakabe never bothered me and was peacefully holding the north for me. Imagawa was at war with Takeda, Satake, and Satomi(These three formed an alliance) by the time Hojo was Destroyed. I am not at war with anyone but I can choose from Takeda, Satake, and Satomi, but what I did was get a trade agreement with Takeda(I gave them money as gifts to get to their good side) then embargo its alliance with Satake and Satomi. As expected the Takeda did not attack me and I took out Satomi. Satake was busy at war with Uesugi at that time so it wasn't paying attention to me at all. By that time the Takeda took out the Imagawa and I was free from being a vassal. The Takeda approached me for a military alliance(an unusual move for an AI lol) which lasted until the end of the game lol.

    anyway there's a lot of things I've done to make it through but if you want to finish the Tokugawa campaign you have to remember that the Tokugawa must never be in a direct or open war with another clan. before you start a war with another clan you must weaken it first by embargoing their trade partners and sabotaging their economy. How? send Ninjas to sabotage every farm of your target clan(It makes their income less and inciting rebellions will be easier), incite lots of rebellions to take the provinces of others, assassinate all their generals, and make enemies for them by embargoing their allies. It is very important to look at the other clans Temperament, Attitude, and Integrity because this will be your basis whether or not you should trust them not to attack you.

    By the near end of My campaign the only clans left were mine, the Shimazu in the West and Takeda in the East with me. The Takeda never betrayed me because it always have an enemy. I manage to weaken the Shimazu first then I incite rebellions to the towns between Takeda and Shimazu(Both clans are unwilling to attack the rebel towns because they don't want to waste their troops). This prevented the Takeda from completely crushing the Shimazu. After that the Takeda stayed loyal to me(with the help of some occasional gifts like 2k koku) and I incited rebellions to his provinces and took them 1 by 1. It was very effective the Takeda got squeezed to 5 distant provinces but their armies are still too large for me to handle so I started building troops and sabotaged his farms and all his buildings to deny him income. At the end, I invaded Takeda and their ashigaru and leaderless armies we're defeated by my mostly 3rd tier troops(no-daichis, Bow samurai, Nanigata Samurai, Katana Samurai, Yari Cavalry). It was a simultaneous invasion and I incited rebellions to make the rebels attack first before I struck. Shimazu was easily picked off because they never recovered from the non-stop sabotaging from me and they don't have the economy to support their massive armies and fleets.

    Note: When the Realm Divide happened I had the Takeda at my side and we already owned half of the East side of the map by that time with Takeda at the frontier so I didn't have a hard time cause Takeda did all the work for me lol.

  16. #156

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Quote Originally Posted by DeMolay View Post
    Then a few turns later when you have an army ready to fight , you "request join war " in the diplomacy menu , as Oda should still be at war with Imagawa , so you join the war against the Imagawa ,
    Are you using a mod for this? Because you can't request join war if they arent your ally. And you can't ally with Oda due to being a vassal.

  17. #157
    Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze's Avatar Occasio mihi fertur
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    ^Yeah, I noticed the same thing. Either it was a bug and is now patched (seems unlikely to me, but not impossibru) or the poster of that strategy accidentally broke his vassalage to the Imagawa some other way without knowing.

  18. #158

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Finally started a Tokugawa campaign... only Takeda left after this.

    One helpful tip that isn't already included in this is the liberal use of military access. It seems to be more helpful than risky. One example is that I forgot to give Hojo military access, which locked him from getting to the Takeda, whom he was at war with. The next turn he declared war on me. When I reloaded and gave him military access, peace was with Hojo until the RD. I did the same with the Takeda. Not once did they utilize that military access (this is Hard mode btw) to instasiege one of my castles. With that aside, I could focus all my efforts in the west front.

    I had to betray the Imagawa and this was one of the things that turned me off towards the Tokugawa in the past. No matter how many bad things I did to the Imagawa, such as sabotage and assassinations, not once did they declare war on me. I probably spent 2-3 years doing nothing on my other playthroughs before I just gave up and played another clan.

    That's probably why their starting scenario is "Hard" and why they have a bonus to diplomatic relations. I assume that CA wanted people to go against Imagawa and have a bad diplomatic start, which I tried to mitigate a little with rushing to Tea Ceremony.

  19. #159

    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    After the FOTS patch, you cant request war on the Imagawa anymore )= It was probably a bug.

  20. #160
    MJWilliams's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

    Yeah I noticed that, its understandable if the feature wasn't meant to be how it was. Humourously, if it was a bug, it took them the best part of 18 months to fix. I suppose that sort of time delay is CA's modus opperandi, to be fair.

    In terms of the early Tokugawa campaign, I guess we're now back to either taking the diplomacy hit and declaring war on Imagawa, or sitting around twiddling our thumbs until they actually DO something.

    I've just been toying around with a Hard campaign and it looks like getting the Imagawa to break up their alliances with indefinite military access is not the no-brainer it once was. With no alliances they'll always side with you if Takeda DoW on you, whereas if they're allied with them they never join your side hence making you independent. There's also always the hope Ikko Ikki or Hattori actually DO declare war on you so you have something to do...
    "My life is no longer my own, my word worthless.
    But duty goes on, while there is breath. It is all I have left."


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