The Tokugawa Campaign Guide

[izuata]

Get Imagawa to declare war on you. Sometimes they did for me, sometimes they didn't. I think the key is to not overpower your armies early on, if you are weak they are more likely to squish you. Which they will There's no way to force it as you are a vassal, even if you threaten them and have like -400, they won't do it unless they were gonna do it anyway (at random). For me at least.

[Shaehl]

Everyone talks about bribing the first army of oda , but i play on legendary and you have 2000 starting capital but to bribe the army you need around 2350 . So thats not an option . After the hattorie or saito take omwari it is possible to get more provinces if like the hattorie declare war. But this isn't my biggest concern . The most disturbing thing is that you a vassal and to get out of it you need to declare war on the imawaga and you take a -50 rep hit , which i would like to avoid. So now question is there any other way to get out of being vassal then declaring war?

Try to get them to attack you instead (it's pretty much random though). Or, you can pay Takeda and Hojo to break their alliance with Imagawa and embargo them. Then camp a big army on their border. Imagawa will leave it's army in the province closest to your own--consequently, Hojo and Takeda will see the undefended Suruga (think that is the name) and that, plus their new bad relations Imagawa, will make the chances of them declaring war much greater. Then, you just wait for imagawa to bite the bullet.

[dIRECT0R]

Fellas what are you all talking about? Its my first game (Tokugawa, hard) and I killed the first Oda army completely in two battles while losing some 80 soldiers altogether . I hate to break it to you but the AI stinks.. again.

Its all about cavalry, its always about cavalry. I killed his general with my general by luring him towards my main body of troops. Byby general-san, it was over then and there. But I figured to toya with him and reduce my casualties to a minimum. So I waited for his archers to start shooting my foot-soldiers before I charged them in the back with my general spread-out in a single line (shattered immediately, and they did not shoot the general on approach being too busy with my infantry).

Left with two or three units of infantry alone, and forced to attack because of my archers shooting him, I got the stupid AI to send one of his few Yari units after my general. So he attacked with two Yari on my main body. Evading the third Yari Ashigaru he sent after me I charged with my general (again in single-line for maximum effect) into the back of those two outnumbered, general-less Yaris he attacked me with. You guessed it - shattered immediately. The third Yari broke when my entire army approached. I auto-resolved the battle with the remnants of that army and besieged Oda's castle. He sallied forth and got owned. No more Oda.

[dIRECT0R]

What I want to know is HOW DO I GET THE IMAGAWA TO BETRAY ME?

[Rigby]

Fellas what are you all talking about? Its my first game (Tokugawa, hard) and I killed the first Oda army completely in two battles while losing some 80 soldiers altogether . I hate to break it to you but the AI stinks.. again.

Its all about cavalry, its always about cavalry. I killed his general with my general by luring him towards my main body of troops. Byby general-san, it was over then and there. But I figured to toya with him and reduce my casualties to a minimum. So I waited for his archers to start shooting my foot-soldiers before I charged them in the back with my general spread-out in a single line (shattered immediately, and they did not shoot the general on approach being too busy with my infantry).

Left with two or three units of infantry alone, and forced to attack because of my archers shooting him, I got the stupid AI to send one of his few Yari units after my general. So he attacked with two Yari on my main body. Evading the third Yari Ashigaru he sent after me I charged with my general (again in single-line for maximum effect) into the back of those two outnumbered, general-less Yaris he attacked me with. You guessed it - shattered immediately. The third Yari broke when my entire army approached. I auto-resolved the battle with the remnants of that army and besieged Oda's castle. He sallied forth and got owned. No more Oda.

It's not the problem to beat the army , and btw play on legendary , hard is for beginners . The main point is how to get out of vassal without declaring war and second thing is you cant bribe in legendary on first turn because to bribe it cost 2350 but you only have a purse of 2000 .

[dIRECT0R]

1) Yes I know "hard is for beginners", I was a beginner as far as Shogun 2 is concerned - that's why I picked it. However the reason why I won is that the AI cannot handle cavalry manoeuvres, never could, probably never will.
I did the exact same thing several times on different difficulties. So teh fact that you can't bribe that silly starting Oda army is really of no concern - it can be eliminated without much damage or difficulty because it has light cavalry vs your general's heavy cav (he charges your line with the light cav alomost every time).

2) Yes I know the main point is getting the Imagawa to betray you. See my second post? This overly-severe faction punishment for breaking an alliance is the stupidest thing in the game, or I should say the diplomacy is again faulty. You virtually can't play this faction without 1) being universally hated by other daimyo, and 2) your daimyo losing honour and losing stability.

In this game the peasants revolt because their daimyo loses "honour". Stupid, but fine. However the idea that the peasants would revolt because their daimyo betrayed another daimyo is utterly ridiculous. HELLO! this is medieval Japan, people assassinated, betrayed, bribed, and switched sides constantly and consistently. In spite of "Japanese honour" unscrupulous politicking and treachery is the most common theme of the Azuchi–Momoyama period this game is supposed to cover. Betrayal should not be such a big deal in any circumstances, let alone be a game-ruining problem.. CA morons..

[Toranagah]

I won this campaign on medium difficulty by doing the following strategy: I tried capturing Oda but of course Satori(or however it's called) captured them in the first turn. I decided then to build up my army and a good income, while also trying to make good friends of Takeda and Hojo. Before betraying Imagawa I gave money (like 200 for 15-20 turns) to both clans in order to make them break the alliance with the clan I was vassal of. I killed then Imagawa and Hojo afterwards. After that I became an ally of Takeda and with their help conquered everything up to Date(I took the inferior territories part and Takeda the superior). Meanwhile, Asai came north of Mikawa and i allied them in order to maintain peace. I created 3 big armies and betrayed both Takeda and Asai then and conquered the whole right side of japan up to Kyoto. I conquered it and won the short campaign. Realm devide was not a problem because I was prepared.

[dIRECT0R]

I could not avoid breaking the alliance with the Imagawa, but I did manage to wipe them and their little friends off the map (Takeda/Red and Hojo/Blue). Everybody hates me but at least I'm far too strong to attack. I'm so awesome..

So I figure I'll just take five from conquest since one more province and the Shogunate will attack. I research the first food upgrade and raised all farms and castles in my kingdom to tier 3 (all teh while being careful to first build the farm upgrade, and then expand the city to avoid food shortages). I'm loving it, I'm getting profits left and right, and I decide to build up markets and trading. So I build markets in all provinces and upgrade them to tier 2 ("Rice exchange"). BIG MISTAKE. I'm ruined. GAME OVER. Get this: the "Rice exchange" eats food! The expensive Rice exchanges (1600) I built in all my provinces have just eaten-up my ENTIRE food surplus and I have food shortages everywhere. Rebellions in every single province, even if you exempt it from tax and have it garrisoned.

One of the most retarded things I ever saw in any game, anywhere. A marketplace that consumes food for some reason.

[DeMolay]

Director , it's because with a rice exchange , merchants of your region buy a big quantity of the farms rice stockpiles for cheap , and people from neighbouring regions and rich lords buy these stockpiles for a higher price at the rice exchange , it's capitalism , so that logically means less food/rice for the poor people and farmers of your region (because rice becomes more expensive and rarer in that region ) but of course more money in your daymio and merchant purses . Without the rice exchange , all this rice would not be sold but stockpiled in case of a drought or bad harvest

[dIRECT0R]

LoL, what powers of rationalization.. You don't really have a firm grasp of economics do you? So a rice exchange, i.e. a rice marketplace, is there to take food from starving peasants? DeMolay, please:

1) If the peasants were starving, i.e. if there were a food shortage, they would not sell their food. Food is not taken by force to a marketplace.
2) They do not give away the rice, they take money for it - its an exchange. The food is not stolen, i.e. they should be able to buy stuff, food for example.
3) If the nobility, i.e ME, buys the food, where does it go? Is it ALL eaten-up? What?

This building apparently takes food from starving peasants by force and sells it - probably to some guy with a lot of money that likes to throw rice into the Pacific ocean. The "food supply" nonsense is something CA did not try before, they're new at it, and they botched it. Its a mess in general.

[DeMolay]

Director i may be wrong but the way i understand it is :

-The food is actually taken by force , basically , the Daymio forces the peasants to sell a sizeable part of their harvest every year , in order to make money by taxing the merchants of the rice exchange , that's why you only build rice exchange in regions with an excess of food supply
-the lords who buy the rice in great quantities at the rice exchange would be lords from neighbouring regions , not your own , so that a part of the rice gets exported . richer folks of your region also buy rice at a higher price ( because rice exchange creates inflation ) so the poorer farmers suffer from this in case of bad harvest as they sometimes even can't afford it

I think the whole point of CA doing that was to force the players to specialize the region (military , trade or food cash cow )

[dIRECT0R]

Right, so to rationalize this nonsense to the max, lets say the "Rice exchange" takes food from the starving populace by force and then sells this food abroad. Fine.

Here's the problem: in order to expand a city you need to first expand its farm, right? So if you have a tier 2 city and want it on tier 3, you need a bigger farm. That's logical, but you can only build Rice exchanges in cities where a farm is more advanced than the city - and the whole point of expanding the food is expanding the city! You see what I'm saying? That means that if I have a Rice exchange in a city, that city always needs to lag behind all the other cities one tier, since you can't expand it or the food will run out. In essence your farm feeds the ridiculous Rice exchange instead of allowing you to expand. Ridiculous.

It just does not pay off to upgrade the Market into the Rice exchange. If you build a rice exchange you can't upgrade the city. Broken system. Please tell me I'm missing something? Is there another way to get food?

[DeMolay]

Actually , if the populace is starving , just destroy your rice exchange , it takes one turn and no cost . I don't think the system is broken , it just forces you to specialize

What the game wants to simulate is that in medieval Japan , regions with big castles were not numerous , usually , clans relied on a very developped capital , like say Echigo or Kai , and the other regions were like tax/rice/manpower "milk cows" for most of them . Basically Japan is not a very big country , nearly 2/3 is mountains and forest where you can't farm , so the regions were not"multi-function" (like good at farming+trade+military) and for some of them were over-populated already at that time (pushing some clans to conquest ) , famines happened often also because it was time of constant war and requisitions , the farmers and poors were at the lower end of the food chain , so they would feel this harshly as the first victims

Rice exchanges should ONLY be built if you have +3 or +4 in global food supply , but need an extra 1000 to your income , otherwise it's not worth it , because sea trade brings much more money , the only time i built rice exchanges is with the Takeda because i had many +1 food provinces but no access to the lucrative sea and trading ports

[dIRECT0R]

I'll repeat: it does not make sense to build "Rice exchanges". When you build a "Rice exchange" for your surplus food - you cannot upgrade your city. The city takes up the whole production of the far of an equal tier. Plain and simple. What's to "specialize"? You just have to have a city that lags behind on available city upgrades. A city with a tier 3 farm and a "Rice exchange" will have to be on tier 2, a city with a tier 4 farm and a "Rice exchange" will have to be on tier 3, etc., or else there own't be any food.

[DeMolay]

I'll repeat: it does not make sense to build "Rice exchanges". When you build a "Rice exchange" for your surplus food - you cannot upgrade your city. The city takes up the whole production of the far of an equal tier. Plain and simple. What's to "specialize"? You just have to have a city that lags behind on available city upgrades. A city with a tier 3 farm and a "Rice exchange" will have to be on tier 2, a city with a tier 4 farm and a "Rice exchange" will have to be on tier 3, etc., or else there own't be any food.

You can upgrade your city where there is the rice exchange , this particular province will become "-3 food " for example , but if you have 4 other +1 food regions , your "global food supply" will be +1 , so you'll have no revolts in your "-3 food" region with rice exchange and castle upgrade

The thing is you cannot have all your regions upgraded , you need to keep some regions retarded with just the basic fort , so that they give you plenty of food , so you can build citadels and rice exchanges elsewhere .

But honestly , don't bother with rice exchange , only clans with no trading ports can benefit from it , with Tokugawa you have ports , just spam 40 trade ships to 4 trade nodes and you'll be filthy rich , better keep your peasants happy as long as each family give you their healthiest son to die for your daymio's armies

[KabukiGeneral]

You can upgrade your city where there is the rice exchange , this particular province will become "-3 food " for example , but if you have 4 other +1 food regions , your "global food supply" will be +1 , so you'll have no revolts in your "-3 food" region with rice exchange and castle upgrade

The thing is you cannot have all your regions upgraded , you need to keep some regions retarded with just the basic fort , so that they give you plenty of food , so you can build citadels and rice exchanges elsewhere .

But honestly , don't bother with rice exchange , only clans with no trading ports can benefit from it , with Tokugawa you have ports , just spam 40 trade ships to 4 trade nodes and you'll be filthy rich , better keep your peasants happy as long as each family give you their healthiest son to die for your daymio's armies

Don't even need to have as many trade ships for Tokugawa. I haven't built a single one, but I'm making more money than I can spend. Tokugawa is in prime position for trade. I have agreements with 10 factions (its still early) But I'm raking in the cash, and because my agents have been doing most of the work. My armies are pretty small. I could support about 4 full stacks out of my 5 regions. and still make at least 1000 koku a turn.

The key has been picking my fights well. Luckily. I made nice with Takeda, and everything else from then on was cake, I took one region from Imagawa, vassalized them then Hojo did the rest. while I stayed at peace unless targeted (hattori and asai declared) both of home only have one way in and with Takeda backing me up. I took two of Asai's regions and then made peace.
The rest of the time is my agents Metsuke early on apprehending, as many ninjas, monks and other metsuke as they could. Ninjas assassinating generals and sabotaging trade ports and farms. Then now Monks, to incite rebellions, so I can take regions without declaring war on somebody.

[Euan]

I've started playing as the Tokugawa just on hard last night, my fourth campaign so far although I haven't finished any other campaign for varying reasons (Shimazu: didnt want to go christian in my first campaign, Hojo: messed up stupidly, Date: got bored with the distances).

Been loving every minute of it, really.

Of course I beat the Oda's army, and then I moved my army into their province, I had the idea that they only get destroyed in turn one because they leave their province unprotected and its just too good and easy a price not to take for the Saito, so when I move my army in the province, then beat their army but not destroy it, they at least have some troops left and stand a chance if attacked. Could just be luck but the Saito didnt attack after that. Then after I took Owari myself the Saito attacked me, so I took their land and then the Tsutui attacked, who had just taken Ise. I beat back their army, when the Hattori also declared war, slightly worried I only destroyed the Tsutui's remaining army and sued for a lucrative peace deal to focus on the Hattori. I probably didn't need to do that though, as the Hattori were severely beaten when they sieged Mino province and then it was just mopping up their two provinces. So now I own 5 provinces in a very interesting location, still quite early on in the game, and since I dont have any wars I can focus on economy, which is something i also enjoy. I'm not going to kill the Imagawa unless they start some , figuring somebody will either attack me or them at some point. Tsutui will probably be taken over by Hatekayama since they're still pretty weak, which will keep the latter strong-ish even after losing their two isolated provinces. In short, having a blast.

I think the only real problem is not being able to get new allies, which means nobody really likes me more than just the regular trade agreement bonus (of which I have a lot, naturally). But at the same time that makes it very interesting in the way that you never know who decides its time to wipe my blood of their blade with my own white kimono, only to realize their monumental error of judgement in that split second before a righteous arrow strikes them between the eyes or a Yari, wielded by a brave Ashigaru, slashes away any hope of conquest, honor and legacy as it rips their innards apart.

[dutch81]

See that the Imawaga are destroyed by subterfuge ... or being a very bad ally.

Also could you not sell military access to someone in the first turn to get a little extra money? I have not played on legendary yet but it seems very important to me not to have Oda fall by anyone but you in turn 2 because it is such a rich province and leads you into conflict with other clans whereby you can expand. My move of bribe and attack any left over units then move into Oda territory but retreat when they try to hit you ... then they go back to their castle ... then you take their castle in turn 2 has always worked.

[Heartfire]

Just thought I might contribute with my own variation of the Tokugawa campaign. Took me about an hour of experimentation to get this perfectly correct.

If you do something even a little bit different, it might not work, so follow it as close as you possibly can.

1) Bribe army with Metsuke. Just reload as many times as you have to until you get their archers and their cav, those are the two more important units.

2) In the same turn, kill anyone who didn't get bribed (In my Hard campaign, they were all bribed.) and move your army as far into Owari as you can.

3) Move your Daimyo to that army and join up.

4) Research something, build a harbor, recruit two ashigaru of whatever you want (I prefer bow) and end the turn.

5) During the Oda turn, they should attack you. RETREAT! I don't care if you think you can win, RETREAT.

6) The Oda force should turn around and head for their capital.

7) The Saito force will enter Owari but won't be able to take the castle since the Oda force retreated back into it.

8) During your turn, link up all your soldiers from your own capital (in Mikawa province) and join them with your other army. You should now outnumber the Oda.

9) Do whatever else you want for this turn, but don't touch that army. You can move it closer to the castle if you want.

10) During the Oda turn, they should strike out and defeat the Saito force, then fall back into the castle.

11) When your turn comes up again, besiege the castle.

At this point you can choose to continue the siege or just obliterate the defenders. If you recruited bow ashigaru on the first turn you should have 4 units of bow, which easily outnumbers theirs, so just make it rain.

If this doesn't work, let me know, I will try to revise it if needed.

[Buckethead]

In my hard Tokugawa campaign I was too slow to capture Owari, I really didn't expect the Saito clan to capture it so quickly. After that happened I just sat back and built up my economy, I also sent out trade ships and captured 5 trade nodes so far.

The Hattori clan was very aggressive from the start, eventually owning Iga, Omi, Owari, Mino and South Shinano. I then received a warning that they were planning a war against me which I was glad about since being as vassal to the Imagawa I was unable to declare war on anyone (except Imagawa). So I just recruited a lot of bow ashigaru from my Mikawa capital and waited for their full stack army to attack my stronghold, they eventually attacked after a couple turns and was annihilated. I then went on the offensive with a few katana samurai and yari ashigaru added to my bow asihgaru, I captured all of the Hattori's provinces apart from Iga, which was unfortunately captured by the Tsutsui clan. The Sakai were allies of Hattori and eventually declared war on me during my war with the Hattori, they are a pretty powerful clan owning Kaga, Echizen, Wakasa, Tango, Tajima and Settsu.

Then the Hojo declared war on me out of the blue even though I had good relations with them, luckily their allies Takeda and Ashina didn't join them, the Imagawa joined the war on my side since I was still their vassal. I just sat back and watched Hojo wipe out Imagawa since I no longer wanted to be their vassal. Now I'm basically fighting a two front war against Hojo and Sakai, I plan to use one army to hold the Sakai and protect Omi and another to go on the offensive against the Hojo, eventually wiping them out before Takeda and Ashina can join the war on their side.