Why we won't beat the taliban and how we can..

[Outlaw]

If we change our tactics.

We have the best technology, yet still struggle to make progress and eliminate the taliban once and for all. How many years has it been now?

We fight a conventional war against an unconventional enemy. They will always have the upper hand because they use guerilla warfare tactics.

So lets take a look at some options.

1, we can nuke the entire country but that is unrealistic.

or

We can use their tactics against them.

The US and her Allies have the best technology so use it right.

This is what I would do if I was in charge.

1, Every Allied soldier would be wearing typical taliban clothing on top of their gear to make it harder for the Taliban to recognize them.

2, Smaller squads of Infantry armed with AK's and RPG's for better infiltration and enemy fire would be harder to detect on the taliban side.

OK so now you are saying, well if they do that then how would the Allies tell who is who

My answer, tracking beacons for every soldier. We have this tech already for friendly aircraft to spot our soldiers on the ground. But a better system for squad to squad tracking.

We also need to devise a better communication system equipment for our Grunts. A single not very visable earpiece to hear and a small hidden mic under the collar to help not being recognized in public.

3, Hit and run, not hit and hold. Let them regroup so they can have more of their men killed in suprise attacks wherever they are. We don't need to hold points all over the country, just one main base protected well with our forces scattered all over the country. Take enough supplies for a week, hit a target and resupply at the base. Rinse repeat.

The enemy won't know what hit them.

[Nevins]

So all we have to do is retrain the entirety of our armed forces on entirely different equipment, and make them worthless when not operating in Afghanistan in a COINOP? No thanks.

[Outlaw]

So all we have to do is retrain the entirety of our armed forces on entirely different equipment, and make them worthless when not operating in Afghanistan in a COINOP? No thanks.

We already know how to use that equipment.

[Nevins]

We already know how to use that equipment.

First off, we could run around in circles forever arguing about the classic AK vs M16/4 argument, but simply put we train on American weapon platforms, and so our troops are far, far more knowledgable and comfortable using this equipment than they would be in adapting totally different weapon systems such as the RPG and AK/RPK.

The second part is training. You seem to want to wage a massive special operations style irregular warfare campaign, but you are forgetting that Special Operations members across all the services go through far more training than our standard infantry soldier. This means that to implement your system we would have to have a massive retraining program, which costs lots of money and lots of time.

The simple fact is that we have the most powerful and professional military in the world, and that they have large programs and studies dedicated to brainstorming ideas such as this. If the Pentagon thought that this approach would work on a large scale, we would have been doing it. The fact that we are not speaks volumes.

[Outlaw]

Hello Nevins, I'm glad we can talk about this because I am very excited to reply to you.

First off, we could run around in circles forever arguing about the classic AK vs M16/4 argument, but simply put we train on American weapon platforms, and so our troops are far, far more knowledgable and comfortable using this equipment than they would be in adapting totally different weapon systems such as the RPG and AK/RPK.

The second part is training. You seem to want to wage a massive special operations style irregular warfare campaign, but you are forgetting that Special Operations members across all the services go through far more training than our standard infantry soldier. This means that to implement your system we would have to have a massive retraining program, which costs lots of money and lots of time.

The simple fact is that we have the most powerful and professional military in the world, and that they have large programs and studies dedicated to brainstorming ideas such as this. If the Pentagon thought that this approach would work on a large scale, we would have been doing it. The fact that we are not speaks volumes.

This debate is not important about what gun is better, but yes re training to use those arms would take some time but not as long as you think. The AK is the easiest gun in the world to use for example. And the point I made would give using and retraining on it much more reward in the long term.

The retraining process and transition would be a slow one, time and effort yes but everything takes time and effort especially when you are talking about human lives.

I'm thinking the people that brainstorm battle plans and strategies for our forces would think of this, but would most likely be overruled by bueorocrats because it would mean alot of M16's sitting around collecting dust. This cost factor comes into it, but you could always keep them or sell some. The weapons the US has right now is to fight another nation in conventional warfare, not guerilla warfare. That is why it is taking forever with no real progress.

[Nevins]

Hello Nevins, I'm glad we can talk about this because I am very excited to reply to you.



This debate is not important about what gun is better, but yes re training to use those arms would take some time but not as long as you think. The AK is the easiest gun in the world to use for example. And the point I made would give using and retraining on it much more reward in the long term.

The retraining process and transition would be a slow one, time and effort yes but everything takes time and effort especially when you are talking about human lives.

I'm thinking the people that brainstorm battle plans and strategies for our forces would think of this, but would most likely be overruled by bueorocrats because it would mean alot of M16's sitting around collecting dust. This cost factor comes into it, but you could always keep them or sell some. The weapons the US has right now is to fight another nation in conventional warfare, not guerilla warfare. That is why it is taking forever with no real progress.

Sure, the AK might be relatively simple to transition to but what about all the other standard infantry weapons platforms? Mortars, LMGs, Rockets, Grenades? What about communications? Forces in Afghanistan have to use powerful broadcasting sets because of the interference created by the terrain, how many Taliban patrols operate with the large antennas of radio sets? What about supporting arms? Do we switch over to technicals? Not use our artillery? Our armor and air assets?

Moving on to standard equipment, do we abandon body armor? It will be very, very difficult to wear standard Army/Marines body armor while also dressing in such a manner as to appear to be Taliban forces. How many fatalities will we have to suffer so we can appear to look like them? What about other peripheral equipment? I very much doubt that your standard Taliban fighter has access to the kinds of advanced optics such as NVG, ACOG and reflex sights. It seems like you are asking for the US military to give up all technological advancements they have for the incredible uncertain "camouflage" of Taliban uniforms.

Not to mention that if we retool our ground forces to be so highly specialized in COIN roles they would be all but useless in a conventional war.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

What about when they go over to Pakistan to regroup and enlist more Taliban?I remember a guy on this forum saying we are sending tanks and it will all be over but still the war goes on.I think the best thing is just to come home.USA security at airports is good now and you wont get caught like 9-11 again.The Afgan army can fight the Taliban instead?

[Outlaw]

What about when they go over to Pakistan to regroup and enlist more Taliban?I remember a guy on this forum saying we are sending tanks and it will all be over but still the war goes on.I think the best thing is just to come home.USA security at airports is good now and you wont get caught like 9-11 again.The Afgan army can fight the Taliban instead?

Pakistan should be dealt with diplomatically, the whole Allied forces/countries need to make it worth their while to hunt down taliban in their own country. In this aspect we are not doing as well as we could be currently.

Going home is not an option after this long, we MUST stay till it's over. Defeat is not an option.

Yes anti terror is getting better and the US has more pressing concerns in South America, drug cartels need to be stopped but they know that US forces are pre occupied elsewhere.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Pakistan should be dealt with diplomatically, the whole Allied forces/countries need to make it worth their while to hunt down taliban in their own country. In this aspect we are not doing as well as we could be currently.

Going home is not an option after this long, we MUST stay till it's over. Defeat is not an option.

Yes anti terror is getting better and the US has more pressing concerns in South America, drug cartels need to be stopped but they know that US forces are pre occupied elsewhere.

Mexico is causing major problems bringing drugs to the large USA market.I was watching a documantary on current tv about it.Am i right that USA troops are coming home soon and a rough date has been set?

[Outlaw]

Mexico is causing major problems bringing drugs to the large USA market.I was watching a documantary on current tv about it.Am i right that USA troops are coming home soon and a rough date has been set?

The cartels run Mexico, it's that simple. The Mexican government has no control whatsoever. The more you look into their crisis the more you see how terrible the situation is.

Problem is, the US is so far outstretched it is impossible to fix everything. This is where Nations that believe in the same things America and others believe in should be doing alot more to help.

Also, I am not American by the way.

[irontaino]

If you want to hurt the Taliban, you have to hurt their drug trade that supplements them.

[Morbius Sire]

If we change our tactics.

We have the best technology, yet still struggle to make progress and eliminate the taliban once and for all. How many years has it been now?

We fight a conventional war against an unconventional enemy. They will always have the upper hand because they use guerilla warfare tactics.

So lets take a look at some options.

1, we can nuke the entire country but that is unrealistic.

or

We can use their tactics against them.

The US and her Allies have the best technology so use it right.

This is what I would do if I was in charge.

1, Every Allied soldier would be wearing typical taliban clothing on top of their gear to make it harder for the Taliban to recognize them.

2, Smaller squads of Infantry armed with AK's and RPG's for better infiltration and enemy fire would be harder to detect on the taliban side.

OK so now you are saying, well if they do that then how would the Allies tell who is who

My answer, tracking beacons for every soldier. We have this tech already for friendly aircraft to spot our soldiers on the ground. But a better system for squad to squad tracking.

We also need to devise a better communication system equipment for our Grunts. A single not very visable earpiece to hear and a small hidden mic under the collar to help not being recognized in public.

3, Hit and run, not hit and hold. Let them regroup so they can have more of their men killed in suprise attacks wherever they are. We don't need to hold points all over the country, just one main base protected well with our forces scattered all over the country. Take enough supplies for a week, hit a target and resupply at the base. Rinse repeat.

The enemy won't know what hit them.

1) It would obvious if European/American soldier were wearing Tabliban cloths. since their skin and languages will be very different.

For guerrilla warfare, you need to have the support of the population, in most places. How will you get that if you the soldiers dress up as the Taliban?

3) If they can replenish their losses, then they can learn from your newly changed tactics and adapt to them. So even if you make it seems like the Taliban is having an internal war, they will have measure to know who their forces are and who your forces are.

It won't work. And it would waste the current progress.

[Armfelt]

1) It would obvious if European/American soldier were wearing Tabliban cloths. since their skin and languages will be very different.

I don't think they would be recognised well from a long distance. A soldier who has spents months there is probably tanned, and at least the danish forces permit relatively large beards on their soldiers in order to better "fit in" with the locals. It isn't exactly like the average afgan is as tanned as a Ugandan

[Outlaw]

1) It would obvious if European/American soldier were wearing Tabliban cloths. since their skin and languages will be very different.

For guerrilla warfare, you need to have the support of the population, in most places. How will you get that if you the soldiers dress up as the Taliban?

3) If they can replenish their losses, then they can learn from your newly changed tactics and adapt to them. So even if you make it seems like the Taliban is having an internal war, they will have measure to know who their forces are and who your forces are.

It won't work. And it would waste the current progress.

Do the civillians take up arms when they see the taliban? No. So why would they if it was Allied soldiers dressed as Taliban?

Grow beards, learn basic Afghan language for starters to help blend in. Dye hair black for people with blonde hair. Yes I know it might seem a little silly, but how could you be able to tell?

How would the Taliban adapt to their own tactics? They would need to make new ones. If you can give an example on how they would defeat this strategy can you please write it up here.

And the current progress is non existant, it is not working and hasn't worked for 10 years, why would it start to work now? or in 20 more years?

[Morbius Sire]

I don't think they would be recognised well from a long distance. A soldier who has spents months there is probably tanned, and at least the danish forces permit relatively large beards on their soldiers in order to better "fit in" with the locals. It isn't exactly like the average afgan is as tanned as a Ugandan

Well, if you are talking about a small unit[Platoon or a company] the Ya I agree. But if you are talking about an entire army just switching to unconventional warfare, then No. It would waste time and resources.

Do the civillians take up arms when they see the taliban? No. So why would they if it was Allied soldiers dressed as Taliban?

Grow beards, learn basic Afghan language for starters to help blend in. Dye hair black for people with blonde hair. Yes I know it might seem a little silly, but how could you be able to tell?

How would the Taliban adapt to their own tactics? They would need to make new ones. If you can give an example on how they would defeat this strategy can you please write it up here.

And the current progress is non existant, it is not working and hasn't worked for 10 years, why would it start to work now? or in 20 more years?

1) You are talking about Guerrilla warfare. The soldiers will need support from the civilians if they want intel, rations[to an extent] or to get cover during an attack. It's a must for this type of warfare.

Since you can't have the allied/nato/us armies change their weapons and uniforms but still operate the same tanks and airplanes.

2) Some units already do that. Look at Armfelt's post.

3) The Taliban is fighting against a conventional army. Their tactics are made towards fighting a conventional army. Including unit make-up and weaponry.
You said let them replinsh their losses. That means they'll rebuild their units and give them weapons needed to fight another guerrilla army instead of a conventional army[fighting tactics included.]

4)http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=433484

[Outlaw]

Well, if you are talking about a small unit[Platoon or a company] the Ya I agree. But if you are talking about an entire army just switching to unconventional warfare, then No. It would waste time and resources.



1) You are talking about Guerrilla warfare. The soldiers will need support from the civilians if they want intel, rations[to an extent] or to get cover during an attack. It's a must for this type of warfare.

Since you can't have the allied/nato/us armies change their weapons and uniforms but still operate the same tanks and airplanes.

2) Some units already do that. Look at Armfelt's post.

3) The Taliban is fighting against a conventional army. Their tactics are made towards fighting a conventional army. Including unit make-up and weaponry.
You said let them replinsh their losses. That means they'll rebuild their units and give them weapons needed to fight another guerrilla army instead of a conventional army[fighting tactics included.]

4)http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=433484

Do you think people in the Village will care about who's side you are on? Or do you think they will be more inclined to give you intel if you trade in something they want, ie food, money?

Again not the entire army to change, just the forces in Afghanistan.

and let them rebuild, they can't hit what they can't see, hit and run.

Sometimes it's best not to make threads right after waking up...

Sometimes it's best not to post at all if you have nothing of substance to add...

"Every Allied soldier would be wearing typical taliban clothing on top of their gear to make it harder for the Taliban to recognize them."

Then how are meant to be able to tell who they're supposd to be shooting at?

Hi, did you even read my first post?

[Morbius Sire]

Do you think people in the Village will care about who's side you are on? Or do you think they will be more inclined to give you intel if you trade in something they want, ie food, money?

Again not the entire army to change, just the forces in Afghanistan.

and let them rebuild, they can't hit what they can't see, hit and run.

Don't double post mate

Anyways,
If you mean some units, that's already being done with soldiers having beards and i believe speaking the language. There is no reason to change weaponry as they have more advanced weapons than AKs and RPJs

http://www.newser.com/story/43056/us...beard-ban.html

Also, most armies in such wars[Iraq and Afghanistan] have irregular units as well as convention/regular units.
This mix allows for advantages of both sides of warfare.

To summarize my points.
If you mean converting some units to guerrilla style units...its already being done.
If you mean all units in afghanistan, that's not good. Armies, even against non-conventinal enemies, need any advantages they can get including planes, tanks, artillery and the firepower given by conventional armies.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

1, we can nuke the entire country but that is unrealistic.
The enemy won't know what hit them.

Good plan

[Hookah Smoking Caterpiller]

Hello Petreus, I didn't know you posted on TWC.

[Armenum]

It's not only about defeating the Taliban on the military front, but also defeating them in the realm of the information war. The Taliban militarily are very weak, compared to NATO, but they have the means to spread propaganda and draw in volunteers that are brainwashed by their propaganda and religious doctrine.