What I'd like Stainless Steel to branch off into

[McCloy]

I'm a long-time fan of Stainless Steel. I used to play it a lot and offering certain historical suggestions.

Version 6.4 is great and I'm playing it like nuts right now. But I have a suggestion to transfer all the good work put into Stainless Steel -- into something even cooler. I'm putting this suggestion in the SS forum specifically because it has the talent and fan-base to possibly spark something awesome.

MOD Suggestion: Parallel Earth

I'd love to see a new Stainless Steel set on a parallel Earth. It would have a totally new fictitious map vaguely based on the geography and culture of the current real world map. The new factions would be direct allegories or archetypes to the present ones.

Gasp! Why? This is a historical Medieval game!

Well, like many here, I have an education in history. So I can tell you as fun as TWM2 is, and as fantastic as any SS game is, what regularly transpires in any given game is quite ahistorical. It can seriously challenge the suspension of disbelief. You all know that Venice is not supposed to have massive conquering land armies. Or the Poles, Hungarians, Danes, etc. aren't supposed to make enormous successful crusades throughout the Middle East. The Scots shouldn't be carving out an empire on the Continent. And small guys like Genoa and Portugal shouldn't be eating up vast territories.

Why make an 'offshoot' game, revamping so much, when Stainless Steel is about as cool as it gets?

1. The constant dilemma of trying to be historically correct, and maintaining 'suspension of disbelief', is eliminated by removing the history and transplanting a new fictitious one that is deliciously wide open. In essence, in a parallel world, with new factions, new geography, new cultures, etc. we create the history of this new world, instead of constantly breaking it often in an unlikely way.

2. The freshness of a new worldmap, with a quasi-Europe, a quasi-Middle East, a quasi Eurasian steppe, etc. I don't want to see some Middle Earth rip-off or some other attempt to make an author's fantasy world. This would be a unique logical worldmap, with human cultures and factions not different than the current ones, and direct analog religions.

3. With new factions, we don't have to frown if Kingdom X or Republic Y behaves in a number of different ways. Suspension of disbelief becomes total. The experience becomes 'pure' so to speak.

4. The thrill of fleshing and exploring this Parallel world would be awesome. On the computer, I've fought in medieval Europe and the ancient classical world for many years now with these games. The experience can get a bit dull after time, with set times and places. It would take years for someone to get bored of a fresh new map, with new factions, cultures, leaders, renamed units -- the whole package with awesome backstory histories.


Yeah, this is all a big idea, much easier said than done. But I think it's the future of these games. There's a war between fun/replayability and historical precision. I think the winning formula is to not throw out history, but make a new open-ended history, a new world, in the name of more conquering fun.

[thespaniard]

ther is a mod like this its kinda like when Pangea was breaking off but its a bunch of different factions from diferent time periods Mongols spanish and a kinda empire total war type faction but its very cool its called Thera of the great Legacy here is a link
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=991

[anonimo272]

play THERA the great thorment...

[Caesar Clivus]

SS is a historical mod. It will remain so. What you are suggesting is an idea for a totally separate mod from SS.

[Forever Steadfast]

But, nonetheless, your passion and ideas are appreciated. As CC suggested, it'd probably be more appropriate for this idea to be separate from SS. However, I'm totally digging the idea - seeing as Thera: The Great Torment is really just a hodgepodge of units from CA, TATW, and a spattering of different mods. I didn't find it to be that interesting, nor worth playing for long.

[Gorrrrrn]

y2day and others are developing a medieval theme Mod set in North America.

[Sokar Rostau]

I think that what the OP is proposing is not quite so drastic as some of you may imagine - he's not talking about fantasy but alternative history.

Essentially you start with a few basic premises and ask the question "what if... ?":

What if Horemheb and Ay were whole-heartedly supportive of the Aten religion, rather than suppressing it?

The first result would be that Tutankhaten may never have changed his name, but the second may be even more important - he may have lived longer (which would also mean that Ay, and possibly Horemheb, never became Pharoah) and been able to spread his father's beliefs throughout his domain. What would a fully developed, and entrenched, Atenism mean to the development of religion, particularly, but not limited to, monotheistic religion, in the ancient world, and what impact would this have on the timeframe of SS?

Alexander lived an extra 20 years.

His empire would undoubtedly have been extended but, most importantly, the successor realms of Alexander would never have come to exist, at least, not in the way they did. Without Ptolomy there is no Antony, Cleopatra and Caesar triangle... which doesn't matter because the Roman Republic would have a completely different history. Alexander, or his heir, may have conquered Gaul long before Caesar was a glint in his father's eye.

With those two changes to history, the knock-on effects would be profound. To start with, the first directly influences the second in that a monotheistic Egypt would mean Alexander never had divine authority. Without such authority, would his men have followed him all the way to India? What would the impact be to Western European culture had Alexander's cosmopolitan tastes been adopted? What would be the impact on the development of democracy and feudalism? What would the British Isles have developed into had the Romans not taken over (since Rome would not have developed the way it did)?

There's lots of events you could choose that would change the world. What if the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest had been a Roman victory and Varus had gone on to subjugate the Germanic tribes? What if Julius Caesar had died of dysentry while in Gaul, or was killed by Vercingeterix? What if the Persians had won the Battle of Salamis?

By the time our period comes around, the world would be a very different place. Different religions, different cultures, different kingdoms. No fantasy at all, just speculative history. And when you get down to it, isn't that what M2TW, and therefore SS, is in the first place?

[Ferdiad]

I think that what the OP is proposing is not quite so drastic as some of you may imagine - he's not talking about fantasy but alternative history.

Essentially you start with a few basic premises and ask the question "what if... ?":

What if Horemheb and Ay were whole-heartedly supportive of the Aten religion, rather than suppressing it?

The first result would be that Tutankhaten may never have changed his name, but the second may be even more important - he may have lived longer (which would also mean that Ay, and possibly Horemheb, never became Pharoah) and been able to spread his father's beliefs throughout his domain. What would a fully developed, and entrenched, Atenism mean to the development of religion, particularly, but not limited to, monotheistic religion, in the ancient world, and what impact would this have on the timeframe of SS?

Alexander lived an extra 20 years.

His empire would undoubtedly have been extended but, most importantly, the successor realms of Alexander would never have come to exist, at least, not in the way they did. Without Ptolomy there is no Antony, Cleopatra and Caesar triangle... which doesn't matter because the Roman Republic would have a completely different history. Alexander, or his heir, may have conquered Gaul long before Caesar was a glint in his father's eye.

With those two changes to history, the knock-on effects would be profound. To start with, the first directly influences the second in that a monotheistic Egypt would mean Alexander never had divine authority. Without such authority, would his men have followed him all the way to India? What would the impact be to Western European culture had Alexander's cosmopolitan tastes been adopted? What would be the impact on the development of democracy and feudalism? What would the British Isles have developed into had the Romans not taken over (since Rome would not have developed the way it did)?

There's lots of events you could choose that would change the world. What if the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest had been a Roman victory and Varus had gone on to subjugate the Germanic tribes? What if Julius Caesar had died of dysentry while in Gaul, or was killed by Vercingeterix? What if the Persians had won the Battle of Salamis?

By the time our period comes around, the world would be a very different place. Different religions, different cultures, different kingdoms. No fantasy at all, just speculative history. And when you get down to it, isn't that what M2TW, and therefore SS, is in the first place?

Once you go that far back what you get is fantasy.

[BarSteward]

Once you go that far back what you get is fantasy.

ha in that case as soon as you start playing SS your 'alternative history' is fantasy, and in that case why bother with restricting the gunpowder event or plate armor or even producing units that each faction historically had... why not just randomly assign them at the beginning of each campaign?

[Polycarpe]

It's kinda ironic that is based as a historical mod but most of their units are unhistorical.

[Ferdiad]

ha in that case as soon as you start playing SS your 'alternative history' is fantasy, and in that case why bother with restricting the gunpowder event or plate armor or even producing units that each faction historically had... why not just randomly assign them at the beginning of each campaign?

It's a historical setting, the start is historical but gets wonky afterwards, this is the case in all TW games always has been, always will be.Because logic why would you suddenly switch to somethinh like pikes for no reason, there has to be evolution and that is seen with events like Heavy Mail and Partial Plate all the way up to plate and then Pike and Shot.

[BarSteward]

It's a historical setting, the start is historical but gets wonky afterwards, this is the case in all TW games always has been, always will be.Because logic why would you suddenly switch to somethinh like pikes for no reason, there has to be evolution and that is seen with events like Heavy Mail and Partial Plate all the way up to plate and then Pike and Shot.

yeah i agree with the evolution of technology but if its 'alternative history' then why couldn't a very progressive faction not develop these things faster then anyone else and thus get to plate armor faster then anyone else.

And then with their new invention (plate armor) carve out a empire somewhere and thus change history for the rest of time...

I think what McCloy is saying is what if we went back before the start date of 1100 and change a few things and follow it thought and see where we end up and then implement it into a fantasy campaign based on things that could have happened. so in a way its a far more extreme alternative history.

[ribelli]

I think that what the OP is proposing is not quite so drastic as some of you may imagine - he's not talking about fantasy but alternative history.

Essentially you start with a few basic premises and ask the question "what if... ?":

What if Horemheb and Ay were whole-heartedly supportive of the Aten religion, rather than suppressing it?

The first result would be that Tutankhaten may never have changed his name, but the second may be even more important - he may have lived longer (which would also mean that Ay, and possibly Horemheb, never became Pharoah) and been able to spread his father's beliefs throughout his domain. What would a fully developed, and entrenched, Atenism mean to the development of religion, particularly, but not limited to, monotheistic religion, in the ancient world, and what impact would this have on the timeframe of SS?

Alexander lived an extra 20 years.

His empire would undoubtedly have been extended but, most importantly, the successor realms of Alexander would never have come to exist, at least, not in the way they did. Without Ptolomy there is no Antony, Cleopatra and Caesar triangle... which doesn't matter because the Roman Republic would have a completely different history. Alexander, or his heir, may have conquered Gaul long before Caesar was a glint in his father's eye.

With those two changes to history, the knock-on effects would be profound. To start with, the first directly influences the second in that a monotheistic Egypt would mean Alexander never had divine authority. Without such authority, would his men have followed him all the way to India? What would the impact be to Western European culture had Alexander's cosmopolitan tastes been adopted? What would be the impact on the development of democracy and feudalism? What would the British Isles have developed into had the Romans not taken over (since Rome would not have developed the way it did)?

There's lots of events you could choose that would change the world. What if the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest had been a Roman victory and Varus had gone on to subjugate the Germanic tribes? What if Julius Caesar had died of dysentry while in Gaul, or was killed by Vercingeterix? What if the Persians had won the Battle of Salamis?

By the time our period comes around, the world would be a very different place. Different religions, different cultures, different kingdoms. No fantasy at all, just speculative history. And when you get down to it, isn't that what M2TW, and therefore SS, is in the first place?

a mod that does an alternative history would be really really interesting...seems like you'd need a lot of planning and speculating on how things would have evolved differently. although that alone actually sounds like it'd be a fun process in an of itself.

[Erunion Telcontar]

Even more so, McCloy is saying, what would have happened if, in AD 1100, the Earth was a very different place (but still realistic, not stereotyped) geographically. This would have insane political and social ramifications, as well as giving us a fun new map to play with.

[Forever Steadfast]

While its a wonderful idea - well articulated to say the least - it would require the complete rebuilding of SS. The team's already put in such effort and so much time, getting SS to where it is now, that I think it'd be rather fruitless of them to change course now. However, if another team decided to undertake this task, I'd support them wholeheartedly - as would many of us, I think. A good idea - this is the kind of positive thinking the modding industry needs - to keep games like MTW2 interesting.

[Ishan]

Please Don't go off-topic, lately i hate noticed a few users have built a habit of quoting the whole OP & then posting off-topic one liners, this stops now.

[mynameisowen]

I think its a cool idea but I can see one big flaw that would reduce my interest in it.

Everyone likes playing total war games because you start as your favourite faction and (at least I do) and try to recreate what actually happened to them. Yes its very hard and ahistorical but thats the main fun I get from it. When I play as the Romans I love playing as the Komnemoi and restoring the Empire, I try to go with history (except the whole bit about 1453 =P). Likewise when I play as England I love subdueing the scottish, fighting a long drawn out war with france and going on crusades. If the world was fictional then there would be no backstory to each culture, unless you spent ages trying to make a whole backstory for each faction. When

What you are suggesting sounds a lot like a total war version of Civilization (which at the risk of going off-topic I would really love to play). And therefore not in the scope of the game engine or sub-modders.

Good idea though =D

[Erunion Telcontar]

Well, all you would really need is a team willing to do all the write ups and a new map. You'd also need the permission of the current (awesome) SS crew in order to use all their fantastic work.

[Polycarpe]

If he wants, I encourage him to develop this project. Just try to gather up a team and your good to go