The Crown of Aragon

[LordKainES]

I cannot be agreed with the description of aragonese faction, its clear it was made by our fellow independentist mate Almogaver...(This not surprise me since i know well catalans and how they like to change history for their benefit xD).

First of all, Catalonia wasn´t a political entity until XIV century less or more, it born inside the Crown of Aragon...

Also, it´s totally incorrect to considere Catalonia an independent state inside Aragon...

The description is so much "Catalanized" being for Aragon... and you should change "the catalans" for "the aragonese"...

Greetings!

[Trabuc]

The ones that like to change history are the Castillians. Who tried over and over to minimize or extinguish the history of the Catalan Culture to prevail the Castillian Culture.

For your knowledge Catalunya comes from the arabic name Ka Talunya (or Telunlya) it is dated from 1002-1085. Telunlya was an arabic town between Osca (Huesca) and Lleida. So the meaning is "Territories farther from Telunlya", The arabs called what today is studied as the "Crown of Aragon" or the "CatalanoAragonense Crown" both are modern names.

The Crown of Aragon (not the kingdom) started in 1157 with the death of King Ramiro II where Ramon Berenguer with the Barbastre Treat by marriage becomes Prince of Aragon and with his other Titles (Count of Barcelona, Girona, Osona, Cerdanya and Ribagorça) continues the Barcelona Dinasty with the lands of Aragon. His Son Alfons was the first King of Aragon and Count of Barcelona, Girona... The Barcelona Dinasty maintained all the lands separetly with different institutions. So we can state that all the counts and the kingdom where "independent".

There is always the same discssion: What dinasty was in the Crown of Aragon the Barcelonian (today closer as the Catalan) or the Aragonese. Castillians (Now called spaniards) state that the dinasty is the Aragonese but Catalans state is the Barcelonian. If we look both dinasties one can see which one is the main:

Aragonese Dinasty:
1) Starts with Ramiro with the doubtios creations of the Kingdom of Aragon the history does not consider him as a king. He is the bastard son of Snacho de Pamplona.
2) Sancho I (son of Ramiro) is considered first king of Aragon 1076
3) Pedro I (son of Sancho I) 1094
4) Alfonso I (Brother of PedroI) 1104
5) Ramiro II (Brother of Pedro I and Alfonso I) 1134 He is known as the monk.
6) 1157 No more heirs but his daughter Peronella End of the Dinasty. Number of years : 123 Number of Generations:3

Barcelonan Dinasty
1) Starts with Guifre el Pilòs 878. Son of a Frnakish Aristocrat. Named Count of Barcelona by the Frenkish King Charles "The Bald".
2) Guifre II 897 (son)
3) Sunyer I 911 (Brother)
4) Miro I 947 (Son)
5) Borrell II 966 (Brother)
6) Ramon Borrell I 992 (son)
7) Berenguer Ramon I 1018 (son)
8) Ramon Berenguer I 1035 (son)
9) Ramon Berenguer II 1076 (son)
10) Berenguer Ramon II 1082 (Brohter)
11) Ramon Berenguer III 1097 (son of Ramon Berenguer II)
12) Ramon Berenguer IV 1131 (son) Married with Peronella.
*** From here the Castillians say it is the end of the Barcelonian (Catalan) dinasty.
We can count: Number of Years: 260 Number of Generations: 9
Because Ramon Berenguer had indeed a son called Alfons we can continue this dinasty but they called themselves Aragonensis because the title of king instead of the Count. They held both titltes (and more) separetly.
13) Afons I 1162 (son)
14) Pere I The Catholic 1196 (son)
15) Jaume I The Conquerer 1213 (son)
16) Pere II The Great 1276 (son)
17) Alfons II 1285 (Son)
18) Jaume II 1291 (brother)
19) Alfons III 1327 (son)
20) Pere III 1336 (son)
21) Joan I 1387 (son)
22) Marti I The Human 1396 (son)
1410 End of Marti I and end of Dinasty. Number of Years: 532 Number of Generations: 18

So how would you like to call them? Catalans as we were known by our "enemies" the arabs or Kings of Aragon as they call themselves. For me, a catalan, it does not matter, but it does matter the facts. For any Historician the dinasty is clear by its heritage. By the way the Crown of Aragon at that time in all the documents either from the Crown or from the other Countries was known as "Hispaniae", (Surprise!?). Castille was refered as Catilliae. So one can say that Catalans were the first to use the Term "Spain" to conquer the peninsule.

If you like I can post orignal documents that proves all of this.

And please finish to title the catalans as "independists" as this were something bad to be. I am proud to be Independentist because I do not feel well represented by our country, Spain. Thanks to Span I am not even European: I cannot speak, write or read in my own language in Europe. Thanks to the Spanish Government my culture is not represented in Europe; I am not European until the Independence of my country.

Trabuc

[Alexios Komnenos]

This not surprise me since i know well catalans and how they like to change history for their benefit xD

Oh, yes, looking at your signature everything becomes clear.

First of all, Catalonia wasn´t a political entity until XIV century less or more, it born inside the Crown of Aragon...

Also, it´s totally incorrect to considere Catalonia an independent state inside Aragon...

This is partially true. Catalonia was a geographical and cultural area, divided in several counties that eventually came under the Count of Barcelona's control (not all of them, though, but by 1134, most of them were, saving Urgell, Pallars and Empúries).

But is it not incorrect to consider Catalonia an independent entity inside the Crown of Aragon. Three had its own Constitutions and Courts inside the Crown: the Kingdom of Aragon, the Kingdom of Valencia and Catalonia, plain and simple Catalonia. Later it would start being called the Principality of Catalonia. But the fact that, in 1214, the Courts in Lleida declare themselves to be representing the people living in the land of the Catalans, which lies between Salses (nowadays France) and Tortosa, and between the Cinca river and the sea.

For your knowledge Catalunya comes from the arabic name Ka Talunya (or Telunlya) it is dated from 1002-1085. Telunlya was an arabic town between Osca (Huesca) and Lleida. So the meaning is "Territories farther from Telunlya", The arabs called what today is studied as the "Crown of Aragon" or the "CatalanoAragonense Crown" both are modern names.

Ka Talunlya? Never heard of it, and I assisted to many classes about Catalan Medieval History

The Arabs called this area of Spain "al-Tagr al-A'la", which means the Upper Frontier. Catalonia, as a toponym, has a disputed and obscure origin. Maybe "Castelania", the land of castles (or land of castellans, the castle keepers), it might be "Gotholandia" as well, since it was the part of Spain that, according to the Franks, retained most of its Visigothic nobility, and coult also be "Laketania", the old Iberian tribe, turned into "Katelania"

But the Arab origin is something I have never read anywhere.

About which dynasty rules over Aragon, I think no one can discuss that the patrilineal ascent of the Kings from Alfons the Chaste ownwards goes through the House of Barcelona. Another thing is that the House of Barcelona turned into the House of Aragon. Which is true, since they never again signed with the title of Barcelona first, or alone. They all were "X, Rex Aragonum/Aragonie", and maybe also "Rex Aragonum, Valencie, Majoricarum, Comes Barchinonensis, etc".

HOWEVER, I do agree that the name "The Catalans" is highly mistaken. The Aragonese should be the right name to use. I was quite surprised when I saw it.

Let's not drive nationalisms of any kind into historical debate, please.

[SicilianVespers]

I agree "the Catalans" should be changed "the Aragonese", but only after 1137. This was my mistake, as I forgot to change the entries.

Almogaver had nothing to do with the Catalan flavor of the faction, so please don't attack him. This was my take on all the reading I have done. You may not like it, but you guys were all considered Catalans in Sicily, Sardinia, Athens and by the Byzantines because the Catalans played the leading role in the overseas adventures. This mod was originally centered on the War of the Sicilian Vespers, this is the reason for the heavy Catalan influence.

If you actually played the mod, you would see that the faction starts as the Comtat de Barcelona which was Catalan, and after 1137 becomes the Corona Aragonae.

[Trabuc]

Ka Talunlya? Never heard of it, and I assisted to many classes about Catalan Medieval History

The Arabs called this area of Spain "al-Tagr al-A'la", which means the Upper Frontier. Catalonia, as a toponym, has a disputed and obscure origin. Maybe "Castelania", the land of castles (or land of castellans, the castle keepers), it might be "Gotholandia" as well, since it was the part of Spain that, according to the Franks, retained most of its Visigothic nobility, and coult also be "Laketania", the old Iberian tribe, turned into "Katelania"

But the Arab origin is something I have never read anywhere.

You are right, very discussed is the name of Catalunya. Lately I was reading Joan Vernet i Gines he is a Arabic Historian and his studies Tarsi al-akhbār places the name of Catalunya from the arabs. Refering to a population named Kalat Talunya. Kalat means castle in arabic and Talunya (or Talunlya) was a small iberic town between Osca and Lleida. The arabs refered to the people (newcomers for them) that lived in the Spanish Mark (Marca Hispanica) as "The ones that live farther of Ka Talunya". Including the Aragonese

I also read Hisotry and new documents form arabic cultures change or give more knowledge of what we know today. Although it is only a theory it is the best I have read. Not to mention Otger Catalo and other myths. Thanks to the new inmigration these arabic studies are taking more importance in order to better explain the History of this land.

Which is true, since they never again signed with the title of Barcelona first, or alone. They all were "X, Rex Aragonum/Aragonie", and maybe also "Rex Aragonum, Valencie, Majoricarum, Comes Barchinonensis, etc".

Of course! they wanted to be recognised in front of the Pope as a King, which in that era mean "sent from god" and it was easier for them to rule the lands and conquer new ones. But take into account that they never wanted to sign without the title of Count, and they never wanted to unify thiese lands. Not even under the council of king of Castille who advise Jaume I to do it. Not even the Trastamara dinasty wanted to unify the land in order to keep the catalans (at that time they consider themselves as catalans) happy, their economy was at that time very powerful. One have to put oneself in that time way of thinking.

HOWEVER, I do agree that the name "The Catalans" is highly mistaken.

BE CAREFULL this is wrong! "The Principatus of Catalunha" exists as is from the XIV Century with the "Corts Catalanes". Also the Aragonese aristocracy did not participate neither the Conquer of Valencia nor of Mallorca nor of Murcia, Only the catalan aristocracy was involved on it. The aragonese always claimed higher bounces.
We were known in all mediterranean and the arabia as catalans not as aragonese, the only texts that refer as aragonese are the modern writes in Castillian language, specially the texts after the Franco era. If you read original documents not only in Catalan Romanç but in French or Italian and so on they refer ss Catalans.
So Sicilian Vespers is right and for me should keep the name catalans.

By the way SV is the best historicall mod I found refering to the "Crown of Aragon". Good Job!

Trabuc

[Alexios Komnenos]

[QUOTE=Trabuc;9165828]You are right, very discussed is the name of Catalunya. Lately I was reading Joan Vernet i Gines he is a Arabic Historian and his studies Tarsi al-akhbār places the name of Catalunya from the arabs. Refering to a population named Kalat Talunya. Kalat means castle in arabic and Talunya (or Talunlya) was a small iberic town between Osca and Lleida. The arabs refered to the people (newcomers for them) that lived in the Spanish Mark (Marca Hispanica) as "The ones that live farther of Ka Talunya". Including the Aragonese

I also read Hisotry and new documents form arabic cultures change or give more knowledge of what we know today. Although it is only a theory it is the best I have read. Not to mention Otger Catalo and other myths. Thanks to the new inmigration these arabic studies are taking more importance in order to better explain the History of this land.

Not even the Trastamara dinasty wanted to unify the land in order to keep the catalans (at that time they consider themselves as catalans) happy, their economy was at that time very powerful. One have to put oneself in that time way of thinking.

They never wanted to keep the insitutions, they just had no choice. Remember that Peter the Cerimonious, probably the most "catalanist" king of Aragon, tried to neglect the Constitutions, and he was fought and put down for that.

Also, the Trastámara kings never considered them Catalans. I think none of them ever spoke Catalan or thought about him as such. Even though Ferdinand the Catholic was known in Castille as "that old Catalan prick".

BE CAREFULL this is wrong! "The Principatus of Catalunha" exists as is from the XIV Century with the "Corts Catalanes". Also the Aragonese aristocracy did not participate neither the Conquer of Valencia nor of Mallorca nor of Murcia, Only the catalan aristocracy was involved on it. The aragonese always claimed higher bounces.

This is so untrue. The conquest of València was the Aragonese nobility's request ever since the death of Peter the Catholic, and even before. Part of València was conquered by Aragonese nobles without consent of the king. Blasco de Alagón took Morella even before the King sailed off to Mallorca.

You're just neglecting the Aragonese due place in the history of the Crown of Aragon.

Aragonese nobility always had a preeminent place in the king's council, and formed the whole of the royal battle retinue. Due to the royal title being that of Aragon.

Also, I've seen you use the name "Corona Aragoniae" in the mid-late game. If you're aiming to the historically accurate name, this is wrong. The only name they ever used was Regnum Aragonum. "Crown of Aragon" is a historiographical word used to make distinction between the original Kingdom of Aragon and the post-1150 Aragon + Barcelona. The word itslef was coined during the reign of Charles V to refer to the territories that once were under the independent king of Aragon.

[Trabuc]

Sorry for the Genealogy Tree. Sicilian Vespers is very good. I mix myself a little bit when I was preparing this post for StainlessSteel 6.3, very Good mod but Historically very mistaking in the "Crown of Aragon".

Trabuc

[Almogaver]

I cannot be agreed with the description of aragonese faction, its clear it was made by our fellow independentist mate Almogaver...(This not surprise me since i know well catalans and how they like to change history for their benefit xD).

First of all, Catalonia wasn´t a political entity until XIV century less or more, it born inside the Crown of Aragon...

Also, it´s totally incorrect to considere Catalonia an independent state inside Aragon...

The description is so much "Catalanized" being for Aragon... and you should change "the catalans" for "the aragonese"...

Greetings!

As SicilianVespers said I didn't do it. Don't assume things you don't know because you've got absolutely no clue what you are talking about.
If you play the mod you will see that there is no "changing history" whatsoever.

If you actually played the mod, you would see that the faction starts as the Comtat de Barcelona which was Catalan, and after 1137 becomes the Corona Aragonae.

Yes. There's nothing worse than spreading around about a mod without knowledge of it.

Also, it´s totally incorrect to considere Catalonia an independent state inside Aragon...

well you should know from SicilianVespers' description of the faction (I can't believe I have to explain this!) that after the Marriage of Petronilla of Aragon and the Count of Barcelona Ramon Berenguer Aragon and the County of Barcelona were united and each maintained its parliaments and institutions.

Please, don't make us discuss obvious things.

...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_Aragon#History

[Trabuc]

Peter the Cerimonious, probably the most "catalanist" king of Aragon

The word Catalanist comes from "La Reniaxença" (The Renaissance) I see the quotes but you cannot use it here. At that time the king where Catalans not Catalanists. They were known as catalans since Ramon Berenguer III where it is first written by Enric de Pisa, and all the cronicles are written in Romanç Catalan.

They never wanted to keep the insitutions

Yes becaue Trastamara liked the absolutism as Castillians (They where from Castille), but we are talking late 1400's.

The conquest of València was the Aragonese nobility's request ever since the death of Peter the Catholic, and even before. Part of València was conquered by Aragonese nobles without consent of the king. Blasco de Alagón took Morella even before the King sailed off to Mallorca.

yes was their request after the Muret with King Peter but the facts are different. It is not fair, Blasco D'Alagó was the most loyal aragonese but this does not mean mostly the aragoneses where loyal. The conquest of Penyiscola was a failure because the aragoneses left the king alone (except Blasco). By the same statement Hug de Forcalquier an Occitan noble who was also with Blasco was involved, but we cannot say the Occitans conquered Valencia. King Jaume with Blasco and Hug and several noble catalans face down to valencia and until the pope consider the take of Valencia a Crusade the other aragonese did not participate (with germans and other factions that joined at that time) but the wall of the city was almost destroyed. The aragonese nobelty consider the conquer was for them and convinced Blasco to go further and take Morella without king's permission. Jaume took alone Ares to force Blasco to give him Morella.
To end the city of Valencia was given to all the factions that participate to the conquest. also Blasco d'Alagon had Morella but the rest was repopulated from people of Tarragona (that's why they spoke catalan)

Also, I've seen you use the name "Corona Aragoniae" in the mid-late game. If you're aiming to the historically accurate name, this is wrong. The only name they ever used was Regnum Aragonum. "Crown of Aragon" is a historiographical word used to make distinction between the original Kingdom of Aragon and the post-1150 Aragon + Barcelona. The word itslef was coined during the reign of Charles V to refer to the territories that once were under the independent king of Aragon.

I didn't know that "Corona" was from Carles V. Thanks! But I knew it was historically incorrect since the Spanish Mark nobelty used all the titles on their documents. I thought it was a shorten way to define "king of Aragon, Count of Barcelona, Count of Osona, Count of Girona..."

It is good to discuss with you!! :-) you make me review middle age history.

[Alexios Komnenos]

The word Catalanist comes from "La Reniaxença" (The Renaissance) I see the quotes but you cannot use it here. At that time the king where Catalans not Catalanists. They were known as catalans since Ramon Berenguer III where it is first written by Enric de Pisa, and all the cronicles are written in Romanç Catalan.

I don't argue that, but Peter the Cerimonious was really very catalanist. It was under his patronage that most of the "fundational" Catalan legends were forged or promoted. For example, he signed as Pere Terç or Petrus Tertius, because he considered that his true ascendants were not the original Kings of Aragon, descendants of Sancho the Greater, but the Counts of Barcelona, starting with Ramon Berenguer IV. However, he was still King of Aragon, of the House of Aragon (and not the House of Barcelona).

Yes becaue Trastamara liked the absolutism as Castillians (They where from Castille), but we are talking late 1400's.

Labelling all Castillians as "absolutists" is a severe misconception. I think the Trastámara kings of Aragon were very good kings, mostly. Sure, none of them did any effort to speak Catalan or even like our institutions. But they kind of dealt with it the way they could. Their goal was the make Aragon greater (thus making themselves greater, of course, but such was the mind of every Medieval king), and institutions such as the Courts, or Parliament, and the Constitutions that subjected the king to the Land's Law (which is to say, the Baron's Law) was a serious impediment.

Everyone here blames John II the Faithless. But, come on, let's look at this objectively: it's a war between the opressing Feudal nobility and the corrupt urban patriciate against the low-class peasants seeking freedom, the middle class urban artisans and the King who wants to use the two latter social strata to crush the two former estates... there are no good or bad guys in History, but there are progressive and backwards concepts of judgement. Who's the progressist and who's the conservative? Who would benefit the people better?

But yes, that's for another discussion

Blasco d'Alagon had Morella but the rest was repopulated from people of Tarragona (that's why they spoke catalan)

I thought it was a shorten way to define "king of Aragon, Count of Barcelona, Count of Osona, Count of Girona..."

we can discuss further but: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_...s_alternativos the name was used for the first time at the end of the XIIIth century... but there is no absolut truth and many names would be correct.

I think the name Corona Aragonum is alright for the mod.

The King of Aragon almost never used the other Catalan counties, saving Barcelona, they considered that Barcelona already covered them, or was not the titular of these titles.

Corona Aragonum is correct, yes. But "Corona Angliae" would also be correct. "Corona Castilliae" as well. There's a reason for which they said "the lands under the Crown of Aragon". The Crown is the representation of the king, and the king is king of many lands. Any king who possessed more than one royal (or more than one "important" title, like the late king of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania) tended to speak of his "Crowns", which is to say "Kingdoms".

I don't argue the use of "Crown of Aragon", it's a confortable term with its own history. But the most common way to talk about it in the XII-XIVth Centuries was "Regnum Aragonum".

Anyway, at this point the discussion has become quite sterile. A pleasure, nevertheless.

[Almogaver]

Anyway, at this point the discussion has become quite sterile. A pleasure, nevertheless.

Agreed

[Almogaver]

Also, I've seen you use the name "Corona Aragoniae" in the mid-late game. If you're aiming to the historically accurate name, this is wrong. The only name they ever used was Regnum Aragonum. "Crown of Aragon" is a historiographical word used to make distinction between the original Kingdom of Aragon and the post-1150 Aragon + Barcelona. The word itslef was coined during the reign of Charles V to refer to the territories that once were under the independent king of Aragon.

we can discuss further but: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corona_...s_alternativos the name was used for the first time at the end of the XIIIth century... but there is no absolut truth and many names would be correct.

I think the name Corona Aragonum is alright for the mod.

[VINC.XXIII]

"Crown of Aragon" is a historiographical word"
Interesting...
Just what would be the true vernacular expression for the starting 15th century?
In substance for 1401 Renaissance Campaign.

[Almogaver]

"Crown of Aragon" is a historiographical word"
Interesting...
Just what would be the true vernacular expression for the starting 15th century?
In substance for 1401 Renaissance Campaign.

from the post above for those who don't understand Spanish here's the translation:

Between the XIII and XV, all the possessions of the king were designated by various names such as "Corona regni Aragonum" (Crown of Aragon), "Corona Aragoniae Regum '(Crown of the Kings of Aragon), "Corona Aragonum" (Crown of Aragon) or "Corona Regia" and Lalinde Abadía notes that there aren't many more reasons to talk about "Crown of Aragon" than "Crown of the Kingdom of Aragon" or other names whose common element is: all lands and peoples that were subject to the jurisdiction of the King of Aragon. The names of the late XIIIth century are "Corona Real", "Patrimonio Real" and exceptionally, and in the context of the Privilege of annexation of Mallorca to the Crown of Aragon, in 1286, appears the phrase "Regno, Dominio et corona Aragonum et Catalonia", which Ferran Soldevila translates as Corona d'Aragón i Catalunya ("Crown of Aragon and Catalonia"), although only five years Later, in 1291, in the renewal of these privileges, it's called "Kingdoms of Aragon, Valencia and County of Barcelona".
From the XIVth century it was simplified to "Crown of Aragon", "Kingdoms of Aragon" or simply "Aragon."

I think it's way easier to call it Corona Aragonum but other designations would also be correct and we have many to choose from...

[VINC.XXIII]

thanks!

(btw, sure, the latin make all peoples agreed...)

[SicilianVespers]

I think we have to keep in mind that the Corona Aragona is larger than its Spanish parts. It also included Sicily+Athen and Sardina at times.

Sicily was not part of the Kingdom of Aragon, we were a separate Kingdom, that was supposed to have a separate king. If a Sicilian King was to ascend to the Aragonese throne, he was supposed to relinquish the Sicilian crown (usually to a son or brother).

So, to call this entity the Kingdom of Aragon, once it expands outside of Spain is just wrong.

That said, I am open to historically accurate names. I found Corona Aragonae in a very old Latin book, but this can be replaced.

[Almogaver]

I think we have to keep in mind that the Corona Aragona is larger than its Spanish parts. It also included Sicily+Athen and Sardina at times.

Sicily was not part of the Kingdom of Aragon, we were a separate Kingdom, that was supposed to have a separate king. If a Sicilian King was to ascend to the Aragonese throne, he was supposed to relinquish the Sicilian crown (usually to a son or brother).

So, to call this entity the Kingdom of Aragon, once it expands outside of Spain is just wrong.

That said, I am open to historically accurate names. I found Corona Aragonae in a very old Latin book, but this can be replaced.

IMHO Corona Aragonae/Corona Aragonum is the best possible name to describe it without complicating it further...

[VINC.XXIII]

In "Ramon Bérenger V of Provence", only "Couronne d'Aragon" is used.
With some extracts in latin too, as letters and diplomas, Corona Aragonae is the lone used.

(I think I have one good vernacular title for the Provence...)

[Trabuc]

he signed as Pere Terç or Petrus Tertius

Peter the Great also sigend as II

Labelling all Castillians as "absolutists" is a severe misconception.

I did not said "all"

the discussion has become quite sterile

I have never consider a discussion sterile if it has respect, which I think this had.
As you said. A pleasure.

[Trabuc]

Peter the Great also sigend as II

Excuse me, Peter the great never signed as II nor as III as far as I read, since we do not have personal chronicles.