So About The Spiderman Samurai.....

[Zipzopdippidybopbop]

Fair enough, they can climb walls. I can see why CA would implement such a tactic for the game.

My worry is - can they scale ANY wall? Because if that was the case then the AI could simply ignore any other castle tier and just climb the one that houses the keep.

(eg. Imagine defending a 3 tier castle. You position your troops properly and await the onslaught. Instead of attacking your 1st tier the AI goes around the back and mushrooms around the keep wall and begins to scale it.)

That in my opinion is the definition of an AI "balls up". Can anyone confirm that this is NOT the case?

[emperor77]

Why do you think the ''back'' doesn't also have 3 tiers?

[Prof]

They can climb ANY wall, even in the back, but the longer they climb the more soldiers slip and fall from the wall.

So you would want your units to do as little climbing as possible to prevent unnecessary casualties.

[wolfshart79]

They can climb ANY wall, even in the back, but the longer they climb the more soldiers slip and fall from the wall.

So you would want your units to do as little climbing as possible to prevent unnecessary casualties.

This as well as the fact that troops that climb take a big stamina hit...the larger the wal the greater the hit to their stamina. This I feel may balance any concerns you may have over this.

I'm confused by this...

Did Japanese soldiers actually use climbing walls as a legitimate means to attacking an enemy castle? Or is this something they implimented in order to overcome the inadequacies of the ETW + NTW siege mechanics? They're just sticking their hands in the cracks and crevices of the rock wall climbing up free hand? This is extremely difficult without any equipment. I know. I've done it. This just seems like such an odd thing for an entire army to do.

It was done. I'll link this...again.

look this pick: climbing was real!

[Lucius Aemilius Scaurus]

+ If they scale your back wall, whats stopping you from moving your army to your back wall..

[M2TWRocks]

I'm confused by this...

Did Japanese soldiers actually use climbing walls as a legitimate means to attacking an enemy castle? Or is this something they implimented in order to overcome the inadequacies of the ETW + NTW siege mechanics? They're just sticking their hands in the cracks and crevices of the rock wall climbing up free hand? This is extremely difficult without any equipment. I know. I've done it. This just seems like such an odd thing for an entire army to do.

[Prof]

If you don't want to climb the walls you can just burn down the gates...it just takes a little longer.

[Yojimbo]

I'm confused by this...

Did Japanese soldiers actually use climbing walls as a legitimate means to attacking an enemy castle? Or is this something they implimented in order to overcome the inadequacies of the ETW + NTW siege mechanics? They're just sticking their hands in the cracks and crevices of the rock wall climbing up free hand? This is extremely difficult without any equipment. I know. I've done it. This just seems like such an odd thing for an entire army to do.

Yeah ninja at least had a sort of claw used for climbing walls. Shliko or something like that. Never heard of it occurring in combat.

[Erwin Rommel]

I'm confused by this...

Did Japanese soldiers actually use climbing walls as a legitimate means to attacking an enemy castle? They're just sticking their hands in the cracks and crevices of the rock wall climbing up free hand? This is extremely difficult without any equipment. I know. I've done it. This just seems like such an odd thing for an entire army to do.

Looks climbable.





Even Ukiyo-e paintings have it. (sorry, its a thumbnail pic, the store website just sold the real one and its item closed.)

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...5ZImx2HWQAfusw

Fantastic triptych showing Minamoto troops scaling a castle wall to attack. Warriors climb down the edge of the moat, making there way across the water on overlapping wooden shields, to clamber up the stone walls of the fortress.

Just to add the already definitive picture of a Siege of Osaka. See posts above this.

[M2TWRocks]

Looks climbable.





Even Ukiyo-e paintings have it. (sorry, its a thumbnail pic, the store website just sold the real one and its item closed.)

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...5ZImx2HWQAfusw



Just to add the already definitive picture of a Siege of Osaka. See posts above this.

I'd love to see you climb either of those "walls." Now add armor, partially obscure your vision with said armor, and add a 8-12 foot long spear. I have a hard time believing this was an actual effective tactic.

[Googoo24]

I'd love to see you climb either of those "walls." Now add armor, partially obscure your vision with said armor, and add a 8-12 foot long spear. I have a hard time believing this was an actual effective tactic.

From my understanding, Japanese armor is light; specifically combat armor. Furthermore, how obscured would one's vision be? The helmets (even with face guards) seem to afford pretty good visibility. Now climbing the wall with the yari might be difficult (depending on its weight/height).

[SonOfCrusader76]

I don't know about Japanese armour, but some Chinese armour was made from paper (yes). And believe it or not, it actually worked - there was a documentary about it a while back!

[M2TWRocks]

From my understanding, Japanese armor is light; specifically combat armor. Furthermore, how obscured would one's vision be? The helmets (even with face guards) seem to afford pretty good visibility. Now climbing the wall with the yari might be difficult (depending on its weight/height).

Can you climb this wall? Let's just assume you have no armor on.

[Choki]

I'd love to see you climb either of those "walls." Now add armor, partially obscure your vision with said armor, and add a 8-12 foot long spear. I have a hard time believing this was an actual effective tactic.

Yes! you can´t!
And less in the Fortress in SHOGUN 2 Where some Wall are 90°. A ninja could climb that?

The Samurai went up the walls but with tools, which I do not see in Shogun 2. They used ladders do not understand why CA does not add stairs in their last 2 games!

[SonOfCrusader76]

I'm confused by this...

Did Japanese soldiers actually use climbing walls as a legitimate means to attacking an enemy castle? Or is this something they implimented in order to overcome the inadequacies of the ETW + NTW siege mechanics? They're just sticking their hands in the cracks and crevices of the rock wall climbing up free hand? This is extremely difficult without any equipment. I know. I've done it. This just seems like such an odd thing for an entire army to do.

If you listen to the advisor in the tutorial, he mentions 'climbing claws' - I don't know how historically accurate that is and a lot of them fall anyway.

I would like to know if they really did this in real life. Also, in the tutorial, it seemed a bit too easy to go round the side where there were no defenders (not one unit was defending the keep - the 'Tenchu'? I can't remember the name) - so all I had to do was send some units up, take a few casualties turning off the arrow tower, take the keep and that was it. I hope that was just a 'demo thing' - sieges in the full game need to be a lot tougher.

[Lucius Aemilius Scaurus]

If you listen to the advisor in the tutorial, he mentions 'climbing claws' - I don't know how historically accurate that is and a lot of them fall anyway.

I would like to know if they really did this in real life. Also, in the tutorial, it seemed a bit too easy to go round the side where there were no defenders (not one unit was defending the keep - the 'Tenchu'? I can't remember the name) - so all I had to do was send some units up, take a few casualties turning off the arrow tower, take the keep and that was it. I hope that was just a 'demo thing' - sieges in the full game need to be a lot tougher.

"Did they do this in real life?"
Read the first page of the thread.
And I think that siege battle was scripted, so, the units would depend on you doing what the advisor says.. And assault frontally

[SonOfCrusader76]

"Did they do this in real life?"
Read the first page of the thread.
And I think that siege battle was scripted, so, the units would depend on you doing what the advisor says.. And assault frontally

Good. I wasn't listening to him, I was commanding my men based on what was in front of them - and that was a castle with a whole side undefended.

[CTD_or_Bust]

I'm confused by this...

Did Japanese soldiers actually use climbing walls as a legitimate means to attacking an enemy castle? Or is this something they implimented in order to overcome the inadequacies of the ETW + NTW siege mechanics? They're just sticking their hands in the cracks and crevices of the rock wall climbing up free hand? This is extremely difficult without any equipment. I know. I've done it. This just seems like such an odd thing for an entire army to do.

The mechanic was present in ETW lol
>repeating things you read on the forum without knowing what they meant

Every time this discussion comes up the part I underlined gets posted a lot. Funny that. I never knew so many Total War players also just happened to be rock climbers! Wait, could there possibly be a more nefarious option.. like people exaggerating or fabricating claims to gain standing in a debate.. on the internet?

-I'm cool with all these discussions. I like reading them. However the amount of words directed at unrelated 'credentials is far in excess of the amount of words related to the actual game. Stick to the game.
Edit: Who am I kidding this is twcenter.net anything outside of a mod thread is like extract of essence of internet.

[Humble Warrior]

The mechanic was present in ETW lol
>repeating things you read on the forum without knowing what they meant

Isn`t that what he meant? By the way, the siege mechanic in ETW was a change from what was intended for Empire. We don`t know exactly why, but we do know that it was abandoned. Empire, most intelligently people now realise, was a bridge too far for CA and was left basically half fixed. Part of this half-fixing was having men all clamber the walls like spidermen. One of the most astounding things about this is certain people argued that this was fine in a game based on 18th century warfare where EVERYONE knows that European troops did not grapple up walls in their thousands. I still find it amazing that these armchair experts whined bitterly at CA for having the wrong hats or uniform shade of yellow, yet ignored this most glaringly horrible siege mechanic.

Then CA had the gall to transfer it to NTW, to my shock (and one reason why I bought it not). Ca had no excuses, but then they made STW2 and they had their perfect `it sometimes happened in reality` hence CA can now do what they would`ve done ANYWAY. ETW, didn`t stop them and NTW didn`t stop them, so do you think it would`ve been any different if the Japanese had never, even once, historically scaled the walls? No. It would`ve made no difference with this engine and CA know it. Pity that so few here don`t.

The wall clmibing thing was never anything to do with historical japanese stuff- it`s simple convenient for CA and their warscape engine\lack of siege programming knowhow and skill at this time- and convenient that certain forumers will constantly make excuses for them with certain old drawings that suit them.

[CTD_or_Bust]

Isn`t that what he meant? By the way, the siege mechanic in ETW was a change from what was intended for Empire. We don`t know exactly why, but we do know that it was abandoned. Empire, most intelligently people now realise, was a bridge too far for CA and was left basically half fixed. Part of this half-fixing was having men all clamber the walls like spidermen. One of the most astounding things about this is certain people argued that this was fine in a game based on 18th century warfare where EVERYONE knows that European troops did not grapple up walls in their thousands. I still find it amazing that these armchair experts whined bitterly at CA for having the wrong hats or uniform shade of yellow, yet ignored this most glaringly horrible siege mechanic.

Then CA had the gall to transfer it to NTW, to my shock (and one reason why I bought it not). Ca had no excuses, but then they made STW2 and they had their perfect `it sometimes happened in reality` hence CA can now do what they would`ve done ANYWAY. ETW, didn`t stop them and NTW didn`t stop them, so do you think it would`ve been any different if the Japanese had never, even once, historically scaled the walls? No. It would`ve made no difference with this engine and CA know it. Pity that so few here don`t.

The wall clmibing thing was never anything to do with historical japanese stuff- it`s simple convenient for CA and their warscape engine\lack of siege programming knowhow and skill at this time- and convenient that certain forumers will constantly make excuses for them with certain old drawings that suit them.

"I still find it amazing that these armchair experts whined" past tense? Odd, last time I checked DMUCs forum there are still people whinging about their adoptive country not having "blahblahblah" and how the mod was incomplete.

I both understand and agree with what you're saying- most of all about the inexcusably bland execution of sieges. Vanilla Shogun you do the same thing every time. You move bows up, you move men up. Men climb up, bows fire up. Win. In FotS you do the same thing. Move cannon up, deploy cannon, win.

But I'm not particularly irked about it. And I'm not particularly irked about spidermen (even if I do dislike it and wish it was changed). The only times I see the historical context justified is.. on these forums. It just seems to me that climbing up walls is a game mechanic - a bad one - but still a mechanic all the same. Generals and Agents have magical experience analogues that appear when they level up. No one freaks about that. No one freaks about their experience always being static from a skill tree; no matter how or what they have been used you always select from the same group of bonuses

As it has been pointed out on previous occasions, everyone has their axe to grind. But to me it doesn't matter. Historical accuracy is irrelevant. I don't like this game mechanic but I don't hate it as much as the CAI. BAI isn't much better. This one time it almost executed a detached flank manuver.. except it never sent the flank and engaged me with 10% of its army absent.


Eh, I'm very tired please excuse the poor grammar and rambling nature. I wanted to give a proper response but I really can't concentrate. tl;dr Yes, most of us hate it but I'd like it if CA did something bigger than simply removing spider climb. Like.. I don't know, actually adding fortifications instead of forts and boxes on hills. Lines of embankments, fortified positions to fall back from or advance over, burning pitch.. lovely little things like that instead of weak fire arrow weee.