(ask) The logic behind hyper-cheap cavalry cost in RS

[Spike]

ok, so, after playing some RSII campaigns, I started to think about something...

why the Cavalry cost are soo cheap?

I know, that was put on so the AI will use them. BUT, even with that ultra-cheap cavalry, actually, after I compare with another mods (that have extra-expensive cavalry), the cavalry-infantry unit ratio are just sightly improved in RSII (the arround 80% majority of my enemies are still infantry)

I knew if the AI could be set with special stratmap behaviour (like balanced genghis), that make them focus more on cavalry, but apparently, the ultra cheap cav prices in RSII is very tempting for me, not to just recruit massive arvernii noble cavalry and batter the Romans into submission

so, is there any additional reasons why cavalry are that cheap?

[NerZhulen]

it is because the AI cannot be altered, it is hardcoded in the game
and it prefers to buy infantry only, it will buy cavalry only if it is this supercheap
what developers wanted is that AI makes balanced armies, with these costs it does

[DarthLazy]

You can edit your factional cavalry to be super expensive.

[chris10]

You can edit your factional cavalry to be super expensive.

True...when playing modfoldered campaigns this should maybe have been introduced as default setting.

[NerZhulen]

True...when playing modfoldered campaigns this should maybe have been introduced as default setting.

says the one who in his own one nation submode did not touch cavalry costs

[chris10]

says the one who in his own one nation submode did not touch cavalry costs

Actually I did change the upkeep drastically did I ?
and Cav prices have been raised slightly but only for exclusive Roman used Cav.

btw:
The purchase price is not relevant for the AI recruiting cavalry (if its not to high,cmon...) but the UPKEEEEEEEEEEEEP...
I ask myself when will people understand this ?

The AI recruits Cav for 600 with upkeep 250
but skips Cav for 250 with upkeep 800

altering cavalry cost values will also impact players. Cavalries like Mercenary Germanic cavalry, Arverni Nobles, and other AOR heavy cavalries would cause problems for the AI in that if it's too expensive, the AI would not hire them at all. And since they share an AOR with the player, changing the cavalry values for players will also change it for the AI

Something which has to be taken into account when playing with the EDU...lots of Cav is shared among different factions...

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

AI take unit size into comparison? Otherwise you could make cav cheap by making them smaller.

Or pehaps simply make infantry not recruitable in certain settlements?

Or have AI buildings that gives discount to cavalry units whilst at the same time make cavalry more expensive.

[NerZhulen]

Actually I did change the upkeep drastically did I ?
and Cav prices have been raised slightly but only for exclusive Roman used Cav.

btw:
The purchase price is not relevant for the AI recruiting cavalry (if its not to high,cmon...) but the UPKEEEEEEEEEEEEP...
I ask myself when will people understand this ?

The AI recruits Cav for 600 with upkeep 250
but skips Cav for 250 with upkeep 800


Something which has to be taken into account when playing with the EDU...lots of Cav is shared among different factions...

hey,
legio cohort is 1200
local cohors upkeep is 700
cavalry upkeep is 480
cappadocian cavalry (armored archers with 45 charge bonus) upkeep 550

this is still absurd unproportionality making cavalry OP, I ask myself when........

[chaplain118]

altering cavalry cost values will also impact players. Cavalries like Mercenary Germanic cavalry, Arverni Nobles, and other AOR heavy cavalries would cause problems for the AI in that if it's too expensive, the AI would not hire them at all. And since they share an AOR with the player, changing the cavalry values for players will also change it for the AI

[Spike]

OP = Over Powered

and according to this:

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...escr_strat.txt

in this section (under the spoiler)

Originally Posted by therother
These control a set of AI production personalities, which contribute a bias towards building and training (but not retraining or repairing). This bias is fairly small compared to game-generated factors such as "the enemy is attacking me with lots of cavalry, build me some spearmen". Explaining the weighting system which drives the production AI in full is beyond the scope of this document as it would take several days to write.

So in short, the building construction personalities are these: (ranked highest to lowest - therother)

balanced - biases towards growth, taxable income, trade level bonuses (roads), walls and xp bonus buildings

religious - biases towards growth, loyalty, taxable income, farming, walls and law

trader - biases towards growth, trade level, trade base, weapon upgrades, games, races and xp bonus buildings

comfort - biases towards growth, farming, games, races, xp bonus and happiness

bureaucrat - biases towards taxable income, growth, pop health, trade, walls, improved bodyguards and law

craftsman - biases towards walls, races, taxable income, weapon upgrades, xp bonuses, mines, health and growth

sailor - biases towards sea trade, taxable income, walls, growth, trade

fortified - biases towards walls, taxable income, growth, loyalty, defenses, bodyguards and law

These biases are towards building properties, rather than buildings themselves. The game does not know what a "Blacksmith" is, for example, it only knows that it is a building which provides a weapon upgrade, and hence a Craftsman AI would be more likely to build it than another AI personality type.

These are then combined with a troop production personality, as follows:

smith - exactly level

mao - biased towards mass troops, light infantry

genghis - biased towards missile cavalry and light cavalry

stalin - biased towards heavy infantry, mass troops and artillery

napoleon - biased towards a mix of light and heavy infantry, light cavalry

henry - biased towards heavy and light cavalry, missile infantry

Caesar - biased towards heavy infantry, light cavalry, siege artillery

The same system as for the buildings applies. Troop category and class are combined at the time the unit database is loaded to give a unit production type, and the likelihood of the AI choosing to produce a given unit type which can be produced is then modified by the unit type weighting. There is also a random element in the choosing of which building or troop type to produce next, so the effect of the bias is a statistical thing. Another factor that is applied over the top which may obscure the bias is a tendency towards producing troop mixtures (according to what is already in the garrison) and a weighting according to unit strength.

The two sets of types can be freely combined; for example, although Fortified Caesar does not appear in the list of options currently used by the vanilla RTW game, it is a valid combination.

and I allready knew it in other mods, setting Nomadic factions as Genghis and setting cavalry dominant civilized as Henry does the job rather nicely, but yeah, non-genghis and non-henry, very rarely recruit cavalry troops. Actually, in most infantry dominant factions, that makes sense.

[dvk901]

OP = Over Powered

and according to this:

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...escr_strat.txt

in this section (under the spoiler)



and I allready knew it in other mods, setting Nomadic factions as Genghis and setting cavalry dominant civilized as Henry does the job rather nicely, but yeah, non-genghis and non-henry, very rarely recruit cavalry troops. Actually, in most infantry dominant factions, that makes sense.

This doesn't have ANY effect, that I know of, on whether the AI will recruit cavalry or not. AND, RS2 is set up correctly according this this anyway. What these 'so-called' rules suggest (and the guy from CA who first shared them said they were not hard and fast, is that a faction will have a certain 'tendency' according to these settings. Like 'favoring' one kind of unit or building over another. But, the cost to unit value setting will override this.

Let me share with you a point of fact about this:

It is said that the AI will NOT recruit Generals. (In other words, if Generals are recruitable in a mod as they are in RS2, the AI will never recruit them.) As currently configured, this is unfortunately true. But the reason is not because the AI doesn't like Generals. The reason is the AI sees no value in a unit with 6-12 guys in it. I proved this in RS1.6 by mistake. At one time, I had the 'Governor Units' set to 50-60 units, because they have an infantry bodyguard. The AI recruited them like crazy. I encountered whole ARMIES of Governor units. So the reason the AI doesn't recruit ANY unit is a direct result of a formula involving cost, maintenance and unit number that the AI doesn't like or won't tolerate. For generals, this could probably be solved with a very low cost and maintenance...as the units have only 12 guys. But then people really clamor because the Generals are too cheap. So you just can't win.

I fail to see, however, how any of this makes cavalry 'over-powered'.....it just makes it so the AI will recruit them. If the player recruits armies of cavalry, well, whose fault is that? I've heard some say whole armies of slingers will beat anything...but again, whose problem is that? Not much fun in my view.

[Spike]

hmm, interesting, especially considering the recruitment/upkeep cost in RSII

I start to wonder if lower numerical cost/upkeep will do something about this.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

May I note that that's basically the battlefield tactic that's been used by every nation and his uncle the past 3000 years, making it quite historically accurate to use it

[NerZhulen]

May I note that that's basically the battlefield tactic that's been used by every nation and his uncle the past 3000 years, making it quite historically accurate to use it

yes but there was huge problem of getting sufficient amount of trained heavy cavalry, in rs there is not this problem, its actually cheaper than getting medium infantry...

[Spike]

yes but there was huge problem of getting sufficient amount of trained heavy cavalry, in rs there is not this problem, its actually cheaper than getting medium infantry...

how about making the cavalry 2 turn when the rest of units are 0 turn

that way, there will be harder time gaining enough cavalry

(plus since they are mostly rich men and nobles anyway, the cheap costs can be roleplayed as... oh yeah, they allready damn filthy rich, and provide their own equipments)

[tone]

...but then the AI is unlikely to recruit them!

[NerZhulen]

yes..
solution could be that each faction will have its own type of cavalry and in each campaign the players cavalry would have high prize

[chris10]

yes..
solution could be that each faction will have its own type of cavalry and in each campaign the players cavalry would have high prize

well...thats indeed a possibility however a mere theoretical one because what looks logical at first sight is impossible as the unit limit is reached...there cant be any more units and an individually rework of the entire unit structure for each campaign with the corresponding complete rewriting of the export_descr_unit.txt, the export_descr_buildings.txt for such a minor problem seems ridicolous...especially when bearing in mind what dvk said:

If the player recruits armies of cavalry, well, whose fault is that? I've heard some say whole armies of slingers will beat anything...but again, whose problem is that? Not much fun in my view.

Its pretty much the same problem as with the engine-exploits...just because a player knows how to trick the engine does not necessarily mean that he actually has to do it or is everybody just that weak a character that there is no other way round than to cheat everywhere possible ?

[DarthLazy]

I say again, FACTION SPECIFIC CAVALRY Dahae Nobles, Companions, Nakharars, Cappadocians(Obscenely overpowered stuff, increase them with Pontus). Theres no harm upgrading the costs of these elite units so the effect is felt.

[Ferdiad]

I say again, FACTION SPECIFIC CAVALRY Dahae Nobles, Companions, Nakharars, Cappadocians(Obscenely overpowered stuff, increase them with Pontus). Theres no harm upgrading the costs of these elite units so the effect is felt.

QFT.