Irish mod proposal

[chris7ian]

I have a proposal for an all Irish mod centered on only the island of Eire during the time frame of Brian Boru and the expulsion of the Vikings; as well as the Norman invasion. This was proposed alongside another proposal so if it sounds familiar that is why. I'm separating these two proposals because of obvious reasons. .

Ireland Total War, or Hibernia Total War or ever Gaelic/Celt Total War.
I made this proposal in M2TW and there didn't seem to be enough interest so I'll post here.

Basically my idea was to have the various major family clans, I think I found over 14 suitable. These clans would make up the factions and also have scripted invasions of Norse and Normans at the appropriate time line. Or incorporate them in from the outset like the Norse in Dublin etc. I don't know if you could work in the Roman Senate feature that would allow the clans to vote for a High King of Ireland, in times of need like they did with Brian Boru.

I haven't the coding and mapping experience to make this happen myself but would be willing to research and contribute in any way possible to get one or both of these proposals out of the what if stage.

@ Peter and Philip: Let me do some more research, if you guys have any links to medieval ireland that would help please post, and give a little more detail to my proposal. If you look at the Kingdom of Thomond, Brian Boru's Kingdom, they always get ignored and their lands are given to Munster. But if you look at the map in the spoiler above and go through the major time periods, the Kingdom of Munster is called Desmumu. I haven't researched this enough for lack of many good quality sources but I suspect the Four major Kingdoms didn't control all of Ireland. I sure some territories were still controlled by local Clans and Chieftains.

I stress this is only a proposal no set time periods or faction list has been developed. I think starting the mod at 950 with vikings having some settlements like shown here, http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire900.htm, would be best time to start. The 5 Kingdoms would be the largest Kingdoms but the Kingdom of Thomond as well as other could control smaller territories. These would be less developed settlements in rural Ireland while The five major factions are more developed and prosperous.

Now go to the next map and the other Kingdoms added in would be the smaller less developed rural Kingdoms. Some are based off certain clans and others are not.

Larger Kingdoms: Larger territories, key ports and castles, more trade
Norther Ui Neill
Southern Ui Neill
Desmumu
Laigin
Connacht

Tweener Kingdom:
Thomond - Brian Boru event would make them a more prominent faction, and First High King elected

Lesser Kingdoms: Smaller territories, often no water access, buffers between larger kingdom, often controlled by a single clan
Ulaid
Airgialla
Breifne
Ui Fidgente
Deisi
Dal Cais
Osraige
Conaille Muiktemne - spelled wrong possibly couldnt make out the print
Dal Fiatach
Dal nAraide
Dal Riata
Cenel nEogain
Cenel Conaill
Viking

20 factions altogether. If this were to happen I would like to use all 199 regions, to support all 20 factions, with a map as big as possible.

Quote from my m2tw proposal about which factions. Some of the factions probably would not be historically accurate, for instance, Thomond is made up of people from the Dal Cais clan. Some of these clans are sub-clans or septs of larger clans. If anyone is an Irish history buff that would be very helpful to ironing out my proposal.

I will get in depth as I possibly can but I really would need the help of an Irish history buff or someone who reads gaelic.

Timeframe 950-1250: Factions based off of this map: http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1000.htm

Vikings have Cork, Dublin, Limerick, Wexford, and Waterford.

Here are the main Irish Kingdoms
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...al-map1014.gif

Kingdom of Thomond (Tuadmumu - North Munster): Not officially created until 1118, but I've found references of Brian Boru being King of Thomond and he died in the Battle of Clontarf in 1014, so I don't know what to call it. Was officially part of the Kingdom of Munster. Anyway this Kingdom could be known as the Dalcassians. Dal gCais is the tribe that dominated North Munster and of which Brian Boru came from, as well as myself which I just found out yesterday researching this. Surrounding Limerick.

Kingdom of Desmond (Desmumu - South Munster): Originally part of the Kingdom of Munster. Areas surrounding Cork.

Connacht: Western Ireland including Galway and Sligo.

Deisi: Southern Ireland surrounding western Waterford. Believe to have been in England at the time of Roman Occupation.

Osraige: Bordering Eastern Munster and Leinster. Allied with Leinster after leaving the Kingdom of Munster. North of waterford and Northwest of Wexford.

Laigin: Leinster. North of Wexford. Officially split into North and South Laigin in the 800's but keeping them together would feasible since the south dominated the North.

Conaille Muirtheimne: Once part of the overkingdom of Ulaid. Easter Ireland around Tara north of Dublin. Sometimes refered as Cruthin, what Irish call Picts.

Southern Ui Neill: aka Meath, or Mide. Central Ireland extending eastward to the coast.

Airgialla: Couldn't find much on this Kingdom except for reference to legend and centuries berforehand. Evidently it retained the earlier entities name and was a small sept normally at war with the Ui Neill's.

Breifne: Evidently a vassal of Connacht. Wedged between Connacht, Mide, and North Ui Neill.

Northern Ui Neill: Retained most of the power in Ireland until being defeated by Brian Boru. Northern Ireland in what is now county Ulster. Evidently Cenel Conaill, and Cenel nEoghain make up the North Ui Neills. Conaill surrounds Donegal. And nEoghain is to its east. Not sure why the map has them separate for Ui Neill and in the same font.

Dal Riata: These were the Irishmen who pushed out of Northern Ireland, not completely, and into the Inner Hebrides of Scotland. Not much is known about them since 600-800 AD from what I read. Apparently in Scotland some believe they were adapted into Pictish society others believe they overthrew the Picts and formed the Alban dynasty. In Ireland one can assume they ceased to play any major role in Ireland's development from 800 onward, but why would they be mentioned of this map??? The Romans called these people and all Irish Scoti, hence Scotland. Evidently that supports their conquest of the Picts.

Dal Fiatach and Dal nAraide: Also known as Ulaid. Makes up Ulaid with the lesser tribe Dal nAraide. Northeastern Ireland along the coast.

Ireland

[chris7ian]

For Ireland Total War proposal we need people for the following positions:

Mod Leader
Coder/Scripter
2D/3D Artists
Mapper/Text Editor
Researchers

Those who have expressed interest are in no specific order:
JuanPablo - Mapping and Texting
Peteriscoolz - Mapping and Texting
PhilipO'Hayda - Researcher
Valkar
chris7ian - cheerleader, waterboy, scripter, mod founder

I mentioned everyone on each proposal since I didn't know if you were interested in both, just pm me if you would like to be on only one or the other.

I really would like to fill the mod leader position first and foremost, that way I can't mess up as much. If anyone has experience with leading a mod or worked closely with a mod leader and knows how to go about creating a finished mod and motivating a mod team please feel free to hit me up in the thread or pm me. Since I have to use the Library for internet, and I have no experience in a mod team, it just wouldn't be feasible for me to try and lead a team.

[chris7ian]

Possible Faction List:

1. Dal gCais http://www.dalcassiansept.com/pedigrees/dalcassian.htm
2. Eoghanacht
3. Ui Liathain
4. Deisi
5. Osraighe
6. Ui Chennselaig
7. Ui Dunlainge
8. Ui Failge
9. Ui Fiachrach
10. Ui Maine
11. Southern Ui Neill
12. Ui Briuin
13. Oirghialla
14. Dal Fiatach
15. Dal nAraide
16. Dal Riata
17. Cenel Eoghain
18. Cenel Conaill
19. Normans
20. Vikings aka Rebels

When your sept claims the territories of Munster, your faction leader will be given the trait King of Mumhain. And the same for Connacht, Leinster, and Ulster. I'm not sure about how to make the High King trait. I think you would have to control at least one of the four major kingdoms and are voted in if possible. I would like to rework the senate feature to allow for voting in High King.

[PhilipO'Hayda]

give me Researcher there, and I'll get to work on Monday.
don't call it Celtic anyway since the Gaelic themselves look at there past as Scotti.
why are you having the game so late from 950-1250
I'nd bring it back to 300AD with the fall of Rome and on to Ireland's Golden age in 600AD
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire300.htm
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire600.htm

Also to make it match more easy there are just 5 Kingdoms of Ireland from 300AD-1250AD
in them 5 Kingdoms are family's.
sum times them family's became to powerfully in them Kingdoms and became independent from there lord/king/high King.
like in Munster and Leinster were the kings have no real power over the lords which is the opposites to Connaught, who has full power over his lords.

[chris7ian]

give me Researcher there, and I'll get to work on Monday.
don't call it Celtic anyway since the Gaelic themselves look at there past as Scotti.
why are you having the game so late from 950-1250
I'nd bring it back to 300AD with the fall of Rome and on to Ireland's Golden age in 600AD
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire300.htm
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire600.htm

Also to make it match more easy there are just 5 Kingdoms of Ireland from 300AD-1250AD
in them 5 Kingdoms are family's.
sum times them family's became to powerfully in them Kingdoms and became independent from there lord/king/high King.
like in Munster and Leinster were the kings have no real power over the lords which is the opposites to Connaught, who has full power over his lords.

As far as a name I was just tossing out some examples. Being Irish American I honestly don't know a lot about Ireland or the Irish people. In America the Irish were looked down upon, much like Mexicans today but worse. A lot of Irish immigrants either changed their name or had their name changed for them by the English Americans who controlled the original colonies and early states. Since those times nobody has really done much to further the advancement of our Irish ancestry. What little I know just comes from browsing the internet, and reading some ebooks. I only recently found out that I'm from the tribe of Cas. I think we should probably have a Gaelic name for this mod.

The reason I wanted to have the time frame start at 950-1250 or even to 1350 is mainly twofold:

1. This was arguably the most crucial time for Ireland in relation to Europe.
2. As an American, mainly due to what I mentioned above, you don't here a lot about Ireland or old Irish Kings and warriors. The one exception is Brian Boru. So part is just ignorance on my part and another is the curiosity in me that wonders, "What if Brian Boru didn't die in the battle of Clontarf?" Could he have united Ireland once and for all? Could a united Ireland have expelled the upcoming Norman invasion? Could a united Ireland have played a pivotal role in the wars between France and England?

The last question wouldn't be addressed in this mod but imagine if Ireland was never occupied. With the occupation of Ireland it was probably the darkest hour of their history. To me this would be a more challenging and more entertaining campaign. Also other mods include the Golden Age of Ireland.

As far as factions I think just 5 Kingdoms would be too bland. Thats why I chose to propose 20 factions based off of the major septs. Those 5 Kingdoms will be present as long as you occupy the needed settlements. For instance, I'll use my sept since its the only one I know anything about: The Dalcassian faction would include several families; O'Briens, O'Deas, MacNamara, Quinns and so on and so forth. These families will start out with a settlement or two. Once they conquered all settlements within the Kingdom of Thomond their Faction Leader will receive King of Thomond trait. Then we could script extra money or added troops, whatever, to show authority. If the King of Thomond or North Munster were then to add some of Desmond or South Munster's provinces and the faction leader of the Eoghanacht had the King of Desmond trait he would then lose King of Desmond trait and be given Contested Authority of Desmond trait. He would then lose the scripts favoring him as King of Desmond, could maybe have his royal authority script halved until his "tribe" dies out.

Once their becomes a High King, not sure how we will achieve that (election system if possible, if not based off of settlements aquired), then it will trigger a script for the high king, added money and troops and also will trigger the Norman Invasion. I imagine this invasion to be like the Mongols invasion of M2TW just more spread out and not all at once.

I appreciate you enthusiasm about researching right away but hardly anyone is showing any type of support for this... I wouldn't want you to spend a lot of time on this to see nobody else join up. I don't know enough to build it all myself. I can't map and I'm not the greatest at graphics either.

You wouldn't happen to know of any Irish modders who you could bring in to this project do you?

[PhilipO'Hayda]

what you want to do is find a way to watch this show.
http://www.rte.ie/ten/2011/0208/thestoryofireland.html

[chris7ian]

what you want to do is find a way to watch this show.
http://www.rte.ie/ten/2011/0208/thestoryofireland.html

Looks interesting. I'll try to find a torrent of it so I can watch it.

Oh and I made a faction symbol for The Kingdom of Munster. I'm changing Leinster to Munster in VI2. If its ok with the VI2 team I'll post a submod when I get done incase any others would like to play with Munster.

[General Brittanicus]

Well if you need a map, I think i have a very basic (very basic- not even trees or anyhting on it yet) map of ireland somewhere on my computer if you want it. I can't promise anything, but if you do want it I could have a look around my files tomorrow to see if i could find it.

[CelticWarlord]

I had this idea in my head a while ago, i could get a a map done. if i can ill send it to you

[General Brittanicus]

I had this idea in my head a while ago, i could get a a map done. if i can ill send it to you

If you want a flat map of Ireland (its just a flat plain atm) I can send it to you if you want to use it as a base for any further work you want to do on it (If i can find it that is)

[CelticWarlord]

If you want a flat map of Ireland (its just a flat plain atm) I can send it to you if you want to use it as a base for any further work you want to do on it (If i can find it that is)

that would help thanks

[Peteriscoolz]

If you could thatd be great CelticWarlord,my mapping skills dont go beyond regions and height editing.

[CelticWarlord]

i can get a base in most things. you would need someone else to the more advanced stuff

[CelticWarlord]

hows this for map_regions ( i know theres no regions yet but just to see if the ok size)

[chris7ian]

Looks good CelticWarlord. Hopefully we can drum up some interest in this proposal and try and get a full team. What I was imagining when I proposed this was a map centered on Ireland, 20 factions of the various major clans and Vikings (maybe being the rebels holding their towns like cork and dublin) and Norman invaders. So I've never mapped before but I was thinking this might need close to maxed out regions to support these different clans. Hope that helps some CelticWarlord.

Also I have made a small sub mod for VI2. If ok with the VI2 team I will post my Kingdom of Mumhain sub mod in their forums if anyone is interested in trying it out. Changes are: Kingdom of Mumhain instead of Men of Leinster. And for the family tree I'm having difficulty finding the people past Cennetig, Brian Boru's father, time frame of 950. So I might just use the Dal gCais tree and have rebel stacks to symbolize the Eoganacht rulers, even though its a 100 years off the mods times frame.

[-Duke Nukem]

Hey why do Vikings are Rebels?
Just call them Norse

Hey here is a screen of Ireland too
In the Early times

[PhilipO'Hayda]

Hey why do Vikings are Rebels?
Just call them Norse

Hey here is a screen of Ireland too
In the Early times

That's a map of Ireland's golden age and not the time of the Vikings

[chris7ian]

I meant use the Vikings/Norse in place of the rebel faction. So no rebel or slave faction, all settlements will already be held by a clan, the norse, or later norman invaders.

[Odyseuss]

I meant use the Vikings/Norse in place of the rebel faction. So no rebel or slave faction, all settlements will already be held by a clan, the norse, or later norman invaders.

To my knowledge this would not work, and/or you would end up with some very ineffectual vikings. The Slave/Rebels in the Rome engine would mainly cause these problems.

#1. All settlements owned by the "regular" factions would revolt to the Norse. Although you could try to work around this with shadowing there is not enough faction slots to stop problems like this. An I'm not sure if shadowing would work without identical unit rosters.

#2. The rebels rarely build or expand their armies, meaning the Norse would have a sublimely weak presence if any at all.

#3. Finally the Rebel AI is very, very passive. The majority of viking armies would therefore never go after settlements or rarely even attack armies in the field.

Sorry if this sounds very negative but I'm just trying to contribute some of my modding knowledge. In any case the concept of this mod looks awesome and I'm excited to see progress in the future.

[-Duke Nukem]

No mentioning about the screen?