Nonexistance?

[Irishpsycho]

Atheists (and just about everyone who doesn't believe in an afterlife specifically) almost universally profess a belief in nonexistance, namely that nonexistance is the predecessor to existance and that after death a conciousness becomes nonexistant. My main question is, what proof is there that nonexistance is a reality? It seems to be the cornerstone of Atheism, but it also seems to be completely undefined and unproven. Your thoughts?

Disclaimer: Please note that this is in NO way meant to slander atheists or atheism, but a point in the theory of atheism that does not make sence to me and that I think may be interesting to discuss. PLEASE do not degenerate this thread into atheism or religion bashing like so many others on the Ethos forum.

[black-dragon]

Does a square circle exist?

Does everything exist?

If you answered no to either of these questions, then non-existence, in a sense, exists (or more accurately is part of reality).

[The Dude]

Does a square circle exist?

Does everything exist?

If you answered no to either of these questions, then non-existence, in a sense, exists (or more accurately is part of reality).

But this implies that the only way for something to not-exist is for it to be subject to the principle of non-contradiction (and vice versa). Meaning that, if we accepted this reasoning, death would be nothing but the transition from a non-contradictory state to a contradictory one.

Is that really what death is?

[black-dragon]

But this implies that the only way for something to not-exist is for it to be subject to the principle of non-contradiction (and vice versa). Meaning that, if we accepted this reasoning, death would be nothing but the transition from a non-contradictory state to a contradictory one.

Is that really what death is?

Huh? I never said that the set of all things that do not exist contains only logically inconsistent things. I just used logical inconsistency as an example.

[Jack04]

Its a fairly hefty question. I suppose the short answer would be that we don't know, there is no real demonstrable proof that a state of non-existence can, well... exist. Obviously, in terms of energy there is no real problem with non-existence but when it comes to dimensional non-existence there is a bit of a problem as it is entirely impossible to visualise.

I would say that it appears from the nature of energy and matter, that non-existence is incredibly unstable. It is infinitely more likely that energy states will exist at some point, than that a perfect vacuum will last for ever. Perhaps you could extrapolate that to a dimensional argument, but I'm really not sure.

... saying that, there's no physical reason why it cannot exist, its just bloody hard to imagine.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Why the hell should atheists prove nonexistence? It is impossible to disprove something that isn't real. Prove that unicorns don't exist for me.

Edit
Woops, I made no sense here.

[Helm]

My main question is, what proof is there that nonexistance is a reality?

Something has to exist in order for it to be reality, so non-existence would by it's definition be a non-reality because it doesn't exist.

[Helm]

It wouldn't be transition into anything if there's nothing transist into.

[Helm]

We can prove the state of non-consciousness exists, we enter into that state every night.

[Himster]

I think it'd only be explicit-atheism that could believe in this non-existence thing. I'd imagine implicit-atheists couldn't make any statement regarding the unknown.

[Helm]

Well we have this universe and we know it exists and...well what else is there? Do we have evidence for whatever this something else is? More to the point does this something else matter and should we base our lives on it? Some people seem to think that we should only be moral because of something that exists which is apparently somehow outside of the universe and outside of our experience. From what I tell only what we know for real here really matters to us, and it is only this we should be basing our lives and morality upon. If you do this you won't go wrong. If you do go wrong then the odds were so far stacked against you there was nothing you could have practically done about it anyway, and therefore not worth worrying about.

[(s)AINT]

Atheists (and just about everyone who doesn't believe in an afterlife specifically) almost universally profess a belief in nonexistance, namely that nonexistance is the predecessor to existance and that after death a conciousness becomes nonexistant. My main question is, what proof is there that nonexistance is a reality? It seems to be the cornerstone of Atheism, but it also seems to be completely undefined and unproven. Your thoughts?

Disclaimer: Please note that this is in NO way meant to slander atheists or atheism, but a point in the theory of atheism that does not make sence to me and that I think may be interesting to discuss. PLEASE do not degenerate this thread into atheism or religion bashing like so many others on the Ethos forum.

There can't be proof of nonexistence. There can be proof of existences.

You are saying that atheism has to proof something does not exist. Atheism has never done that and there are no atheists who say that.

[Old_Scratch]

Nobody knows for sure what happens to our conscience after death. I think that it's highly likely that once our brain ceases to function so will our sense of existence. But really the answer cannot be known, it's imposable.

[Vizsla]

My main question is, what proof is there that nonexistance is a reality?

Nonexistence is a word to describe what is not there.
My children do not exist because they haven’t been born or even conceived yet. They may never exist.
My grandmother does not exist because she’s been dead for twenty years and we spread her ashes on the wind. She has ceased to exist.
Unless you can come up with evidence that either of these two ways of not existing are problematic then there is nothing to prove to anyone.

[basics]

" You are saying that atheism has to proof something does not exist. Atheism has never done that and there are no atheists who say that. "

Yezhov,

As I see it, atheism is built on the non-existence of God meaning that there will be no afterlife because if He doesn't exist then life after death doesn't either. Yes, there are atheists who do say that and usually are the first ones to ask a believer that if God does exist, to show them how. They hide behind what they cannot see or visualise calling for evidence yet when that evidence is placed before them they still won't alter their positions.

There are many incidences of para-normal activity, out of body experiences, never mind the risen Lord Jesus Christ, but you see, a place can be found for the former two but not the latter as that would destroy the name atheism. The atheist can get curled up in front of the TV to be thrilled by the supernatural, even scared, but the very thought of having to face God at some point is just not on their calendar, so they block Him out.

So what is it that gives them the same feelings that the rest of us get when watching films like that? What makes us fearful or scared? Well, it is written that in all mankind, he or she is frightened of death. Why shouild that be so? After all there is nothing after death or there might be but it is not for me to prove it, rather the man who is convinced of something more. If people can come back from being clinically dead then there must be something that is existent after death.

[Vizsla]

If people can come back from being clinically dead then there must be something that is existent after death.

Not so.

Most tissues and organs of the body can survive clinical death for considerable periods. Blood circulation can be stopped in the entire body below the heart for at least 30 minutes, with injury to the spinal cord being a limiting factor. Detached limbs may be successfully reattached after 6 hours of no blood circulation at warm temperatures. Bone, tendon, and skin can survive as long as 8 to 12 hours.
The brain, however, appears to accumulate ischemic injury faster than any other organ. Without special treatment after circulation is restarted, full recovery of the brain after more than 3 minutes of clinical death at normal body temperature is rare. Usually brain damage or later brain death results after longer intervals of clinical death even if the heart is restarted and blood circulation is successfully restored. Brain injury is therefore the limiting factor for recovery from clinical death.

Sauce

[(s)AINT]

" You are saying that atheism has to proof something does not exist. Atheism has never done that and there are no atheists who say that. "

Yezhov,

As I see it, atheism is built on the non-existence of God meaning that there will be no afterlife because if He doesn't exist then life after death doesn't either. Yes, there are atheists who do say that and usually are the first ones to ask a believer that if God does exist, to show them how. They hide behind what they cannot see or visualise calling for evidence yet when that evidence is placed before them they still won't alter their positions.

There are many incidences of para-normal activity, out of body experiences, never mind the risen Lord Jesus Christ, but you see, a place can be found for the former two but not the latter as that would destroy the name atheism. The atheist can get curled up in front of the TV to be thrilled by the supernatural, even scared, but the very thought of having to face God at some point is just not on their calendar, so they block Him out.

So what is it that gives them the same feelings that the rest of us get when watching films like that? What makes us fearful or scared? Well, it is written that in all mankind, he or she is frightened of death. Why shouild that be so? After all there is nothing after death or there might be but it is not for me to prove it, rather the man who is convinced of something more. If people can come back from being clinically dead then there must be something that is existent after death.

No. Atheism is the rejection or lack of faith in a deity. You can be an atheist and think there is an afterlife. You can be an atheist and be nihilistic. You can be an atheist and be spiritual.

[Time Commander Bob]

Atheists (and just about everyone who doesn't believe in an afterlife specifically) almost universally profess a belief in nonexistance, namely that nonexistance is the predecessor to existance and that after death a conciousness becomes nonexistant. My main question is, what proof is there that nonexistance is a reality? It seems to be the cornerstone of Atheism, but it also seems to be completely undefined and unproven. Your thoughts?

Disclaimer: Please note that this is in NO way meant to slander atheists or atheism, but a point in the theory of atheism that does not make sence to me and that I think may be interesting to discuss. PLEASE do not degenerate this thread into atheism or religion bashing like so many others on the Ethos forum.

Nonexistence of consciousness is not a necessary conclusion of either atheism or materialism, nor do either standpoints rely upon it.
Though I think one must be clear what is meant by nonexistence of consciousness. A consciousness only really exists within a small section of time; I am not conscious of what happened 5 years ago or even 5 minutes ago, although it can be said that I was once conscious of those times. What can be arguably said to happen is that there is a string of different conscious states that seem to have some means of retention in them to give the impression of continuity. However, as is well known through sleep, there are breaks in this sequence of conscious states where one can point to times at which they were not conscious, yet were conscious of a state before and a state after. Thus it is most probable that it is possible for one to be not conscious at a particular time.
Therefore, what the question probably asks is whether this stream of conscious states can terminate forever. However, to know this one must know how exactly consciousness comes about and until such a time one cannot say with any means of certainty, atheist or not.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

I am an atheist. I don't believe that we didn't exist before we were born, and I don't believe we are going to go out of existence when we die.

I have no opinion of such matters. We have no evidence at all. Anybody who says death results in nonexistence is spreading the same myths as religious.

[Helm]

I am an atheist. I don't believe that we didn't exist before we were born, and I don't believe we are going to go out of existence when we die.

We certainly did physically exist before we were born and will exist after we die but without a functional brain there would be no mind.