The development of economies, America vs Europe

[Tom Paine]

I take it that the UK, at least as socialist in terms of policies as much of Europe for over 50 years now, is one of these failing economies? Wait its British culture making it inherently superior. I'd like to remind you that the Communist Manifesto was written in the UK; Lenin sought refuge here to plot the revolution; and we have been a haven for lefties for decades. Seriously, and the ocnditions you describe are here in the UK too, in the aras only the British go in; except the grafitti which is everywhere. We have about the same car ownership as any European nation, we have the ****-stinking alleys, the grafitti, the social problems. So yeah the UK is the same as all of them; and its the origin of British civilisation!

Anyway, that still doesn't explain why I as a Brit don't like the current regime.

This thread has been split from the rise in anti Americanism thread. - imb39

[Dirty Harry]

No, the UK is in much better shape than france, italy, spain and germany economically cuz you actually elect leaders with some sense (Thatcher, Blair). You still have the huge problems all the socialists of the 70s created, same with Canada.

[Tom Paine]

I live here. I know that since Blair was elected things haven't got much better for Britons. More stuff costs, workers have less rights, and we the people have less rights. Thatcher wasn't much better, though at least habeas corpus was still in place after her, as was trial before extended detention. But after Thatcher workers were losing rights, there was mass unemployment designed solely to break the unions, and privatisation was beginning to happen. So no, we aren't in much better state than France. For the people, in fact, we are overall in a worse state now than in 1977; the Winter of Discontent was all that brought Labour down, and that wasn't really even their fault.

[Dirty Harry]

Well I supposed things are worse if you're a fan of state owned industries and all powerful labour unions. I guess you could always move to cuba or something tho if all this free market reform gets too oppressive.

[Oldgamer]

For the people, in fact, we are overall in a worse state now than in 1977; the Winter of Discontent was all that brought Labour down, and that wasn't really even their fault.

This is quite common in Western history. Take Black Friday, which started the Great Depression. Herbert Hoover ... probably one of the greatest economic experts ever to serve as US President ... was inaugurated in March of 1929, and didn't even have his cabinet in place by October, when the crash hit. Of course, he was immediately blamed for the whole thing.

Very recently, President Bush received the blame for the economic problems which started in April-May of 2000, during Mr. Clinton's last year in office, and deepened by the 9/11 attacks.

I remember discussing 1977 with some British friends, in that year. All of them were Labour supporters, and all of them knew that Labour was in huge trouble.

[Tom Paine]

I was thinking more that unemployment was driven up; while Tony Blair instituted a minimum wage, it was below what people were getting paid anyway; the government hasn't just eroded civil rights its basically done away wth many of them; and if that's because of the free market, then yes the free market is oppressive!

Oldgamer, the Winter of Discontent was 1978-79, Labour was actually widely supported in 1977, and if Callaghan had called an election he would have had every chance of winning... but he didn't and thus ran into the Winter of Discontent, which brought him down.

[Last Roman]

while Tony Blair instituted a minimum wage

you guys implemented the minimum wage that recently? I would have thought you Brits would have put that in long before us

[Oldgamer]

Oldgamer, the Winter of Discontent was 1978-79, Labour was actually widely supported in 1977, and if Callaghan had called an election he would have had every chance of winning... but he didn't and thus ran into the Winter of Discontent, which brought him down.

It was almost 30 years ago. I can perhaps be forgiven the occasional senior-moment.

However, it was about that time that I had the conversation with my British friends. 77, 78, 79 ... they all meld together without notes!

[Tom Paine]

Nope, Tony Blair did it (one of the few good things he has done...), though under what the minimum wage actually was if I remember correctly... rather removing the point of the exercise I feel.

[Tom Paine]

Heh, yeah... the economy was going down thoughout the decade (which can't be blamed on Labour, they didn't come to power until after the second half if my memory of hasty research serves); I note no-one quotes Thatcher's unemployment figures, or the state of the economy after Black Wednesday under Major...