Anyone else think that the Roman legionaries are overpowered?

[ethan340]

they are much more effective than spartan hoplites who are trained from birth to kill everything. seriously?

[chris10]

...first there where half a dozen threads moaning about roman legionaries underpowered and now we get the overpowered topics......
very interesting how different people can percept certain aspects of the mod...

well...it depends...if:
1. you got a high star general giving truckloads of bonuses casue of his stars
2. if you got lots of exp chevrons (each +1attack/+1 defense)
3. a character giving lots of morale bonuses for all troops on the battlefield

but from the basic stats roman legionaries are not very powerful in terms of attack but very steadfast, highly trained (rarely rout) and with excellent morale (thats why romans conquered the ancient world and not spartans )

[mikeCK]

Well the Roman legions were superior to the hoplites and their phalanx...that's why the med was never called a.Spartan lake.

[ethan340]

...first there where half a dozen threads moaning about roman legionaries underpowered and now we get the overpowered topics......
very interesting how different people can percept certain aspects of the mod...

well...it depends...if:
1. you got a high star general giving truckloads of bonuses casue of his stars
2. if you got lots of exp chevrons (each +1attack/+1 defense)
3. a character giving lots of morale bonuses for all troops on the battlefield

but from the basic stats roman legionaries are not very powerful in terms of attack but very steadfast, highly trained (rarely rout) and with excellent morale (thats why romans conquered the ancient world and not spartans )

why is their defence stat insane? 40-44? even better than pikeman? ridiculous. RTR got the legionaries right. just look at teutoberg forest, cannae, carrhae, lake trasimene, trebia, etc. they were not super elite forces bred for war. they were just disciplined citizens.

[chris10]

let me say in that way:
quite a few people spent lightyears on balancing the stats and they are good as they are...probably the best in any RTW based mod/game...
you are not used to them,thats ok but better not start with things like "ridicolous" cause you are on the best way to start a flamewar such as the others who moaned about that legionaries are to weak...
however...even while romans lost some battles (something which can not be avoided) they conquered the ancient world anyway cause of superior military discipline and tactics which is greatly reflected in the legionary stats...

[Ferdiad]

let me say in that way:
quite a few people spent lightyears on balancing the stats and they are good as they are...probably the best in any RTW based mod/game...
you are not used to them,thats ok but better not start with things like "ridicolous" cause you are on the best way to start a flamewar such as the others who moaned about that legionaries are to weak...
however...even while romans lost a some battles (something which can not be avoided) they conquered the ancient world anyway cause of superior military discipline and tactics which is greatly reflected in the legionary stats...

And they had huge manpowere, they could absorb losses that would cripple any other nation.

[a-woowie.doowie]

I wouldn't say it's unrealistic that they have more defence than a pikeman unit(I'm assuming you mean phalanx unit?) since they weren't all that armored(I think). I mean their formation made them more or less impenetrable to many diffrent styles - but to be honest, I doubt that the average phalangist wore more armor than a roman legionaire. I mean have you looked at them? They're bloody tanks of the ancient era!

[Delta146]

Was most of Rome's conquering not done with pre-Marian armies, and then early Republican legionaries, not with the mid to late imperial legionaries we now associate with Rome?

[Derek522055]

why is their defence stat insane? 40-44? even better than pikeman? ridiculous. RTR got the legionaries right. just look at teutoberg forest, cannae, carrhae, lake trasimene, trebia, etc. they were not super elite forces bred for war. they were just disciplined citizens.

Carrhae was an example of two polar opposite style armies clashing on a terrain that suited the Parthians. By historical accounts, had Crassus not lost his composure over the death of his son and called a full scale retreat Cannae would not have been to the magnitute it is now. The bulk of casualties were absorbed during the retreat.

Teutoberg was an ambush led by a former Roman Auxiliary, who had the 3 legions led into a forest, it was not a pitched battle. Some 10 odd years later Germanicus fought pitched battles against the same former Auxiliary (Hermann) and defeated him twice.

Cannae, Trebia, Trasimene you can chalk up to the genius of Hannibal. At the time of Hannibal's height there was no Roman commander who could match his ability in the field, Fabius knew this, tried to avoid him until it was obvious Hannibal was at a disadvantage. Fabius almost succeeded, before Cannae Hannibal was in a desperate state for lack of provisions, but the Senate unhappy with the strategy elected Varo and Paullus as consuls and the rest is military legend.

To the fact about the Spartans, this mod starts off set in what the 220's BC(?), Sparta's glory years were about 150-200 years earlier, by 220 BC Sparta was a shadow of itself, it couldn't replace the men lost like most nations could. Also for what its worth according to Adrian Goldsworthy's research the legions that participated in the 2nd Punic War in Spain, Africa, Macedonia and then moved on to smash the Seleucid's were the finest fighting force in the world at the time and that Rome ever fielded until Caesar's legions in Gaul.

[Gaius Gersius Maxentius]

Some 10 odd years later Germanicus fought pitched battles against the same former Auxiliary (Hermann) and defeated him twice.

Actually his historical name war Arminius and he beat Varus because Varus hadn't organized his troups (it was an ambush) and Arminius was a former (like you said) Roman auxiliary who knew what the weak points of the Roman legions were!
By the way Germanicus never really decimated the Cherusci coalition, he beat them at Idistaviso and the Angrivarierwall, but he had to retreat due to the fact that Arminius' army was simple to vast and strong. Since the Germany campaign of Germanicus (14-16 A.D.) Tiberius started to defend the Rhine border and gave up his ambitions to cross the Rhine and take more regions, so actually you could say the Roman were the losers at last

[Derek522055]

Actually his historical name war Arminius and he beat Varus because Varus hadn't organized his troups (it was an ambush) and Arminius was a former (like you said) Roman auxiliary who knew what the weak points of the Roman legions were!
By the way Germanicus never really decimated the Cherusci coalition, he beat them at Idistaviso and the Angrivarierwall, but he had to retreat due to the fact that Arminius' army was simple to vast and strong. Since the Germany campaign of Germanicus (14-16 A.D.) Tiberius started to defend the Rhine border and gave up his ambitions to cross the Rhine and take more regions, so actually you could say the Roman were the losers at last

Hermann is the Germanic name he's known by, I wrote the post off the top of my head and couldnt remember his Latin name at the time. When I spoke of Germanicus I just meant that when he met the same field commander/army in a pitched battle he defeated Hermann/Arminius twice, talking strictly of the legions effectiveness under capable command and equal terms.

From the research I've read from authors Germanicus pulled back after the Angrivarian Wall to winter camps west of the Rhine. Germanicus had another operation planned for the following spring but Tiberius removed him from his Rhine postings, gave him a triumph and then sent to govern eastern provinces. Not because of the size of Germanic troops that Germanicus would have faced. But you are correct with Tiberius wanting to go the Augustan route of keeping the Rhine as a boundary, and he actually used Germanicus' expeditions as reason to pull him off the Rhine.

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

why is their defence stat insane? 40-44? even better than pikeman? ridiculous. RTR got the legionaries right. just look at teutoberg forest, cannae, carrhae, lake trasimene, trebia, etc. they were not super elite forces bred for war. they were just disciplined citizens.

Pikemen would have quite crappy defense if someone got past the pikes you know

[rometotal]

one Boii,Arveni Champion or Cimbri , Gaelleci elite unit can beat 2 Roman numbered legion easily. Overpowered ? That's a joke

[General Brittanicus]

they are much more effective than spartan hoplites who are trained from birth to kill everything. seriously?

By this stage the Spartans were a spent force, there glory days are long gone.

[Dramatic Cat]

omfg

its so funny how last month there was a bajilion threads about romans being weak--- and now theyre OVERPOWERED!!!!!


lol!!!

One thing tho, in the non-roman campaigns the roman units are a lot (and i mean A LOT!!!) stronger than in a roman campaign.

[Gylippus]

omfg

its so funny how last month there was a bajilion threads about romans being weak--- and now theyre OVERPOWERED!!!!!


lol!!!

One thing tho, in the non-roman campaigns the roman units are a lot (and i mean A LOT!!!) stronger than in a roman campaign.

This is interesting because I've not found my roman units to be over powerful in my roman campaign. I'm currently fighting against the Carthaginians and believe me their Early and especially Late Libyan spearman can match my (named) legionnaires on the battle line.

I win by getting cavalry and missile throwers round the back, not by carving through them.

I remember in Rome Total Realism the Spartan units there just went through the battle line like a hot xiphos through butter!

[Gaius Gersius Maxentius]

Well first of all Romans have extremely powerful (in terms of defence mostly) units at the very beginning, but to call them overpowered or ridiculous is also senseless. Then you said they were merely "disciplined civilizens"... well yes, but if you look at their armor and shields (so their equipment) they are really well protected BUT they aren't too heavy either, so they are a good mixed force! Also the Spartans weren't the same as they were in the days of the Persian Wars or Peloponnesian League. In the 3rd century B.C. (so the time of the game) the Spartan army wasn't only composed of the Elite Spartians but also of many Helots (usually used as slaves) or Perioeci. Furthermore, there were no "real" Spartans anymore; even the "pure" Spartans weren't as well trained as their predecessors. If you had said the Romans are overpowered, I could have possibly agreed with you because in almost every of my campaigns they own all their neighbouring factions this could be considered lame or realistic, due to the fact that the Romans really beated all those nations, or at least kept them away from their own territories

[Ferdiad]

In my view OP Romans are better than UP Romans.If anyone here has played EB they know that AI Romans utterly fail in most campaigns.

[NerZhulen]

Anyone else think that the Roman legionaries are overpowered?

no, not, never, I dont, they are NOT!
I tell you what, cavalry > legio > hoplite > cavalry
if you pick hoplite/pikemen nation you have easy time facing horse nations and hard time facing elite infantry nations

[Odovacar]

Constant military preparation is uneffective if the methods and goals are outdated, or simply wrong. The romans were the most evolved force in their own age, and there is a reason they conquered the world.