Spawning Additional Units Submod (SAUS) v1.4.2 (25-Sep) [3.2 compatible]

[Ngugi]

Oh, oh, I am one of those two!
But as I never lost Amon Sûl its a bit hard to have an oppinion on the consequenses of an in- or destructable forge...?
Two sounds good in my ears, but it means that I myself will build it rather than it comes from/by an historic event, eh?

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From lore POV that seems far to great upgrades on the mines to me (se Gimlis comments under), as well as the logic of what a very small dwarven population would be able to muster no matter the financial backing they get, just as a note;

[Legolas:] "Maybe the men of this land are wise to say little: one family of busy dwarves with hammer and chisel might mar more than they made."

"No, you do not understand," said Gimli.
"No dwarf could be unmoved by such loveliness. None of Durin's race would mine those caves for stones or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there. Do you cut down groves of blossoming trees in the springtime for firewood?
We would tend these glades of flowering stone, not quarry them. With cautious skill, tap by tap -- a small chip of rock and no more, perhaps, in a whole anxious day -- so we would work, and as the years went by, we should open up new ways, and display far chambers that are still dark, glimpsed only as a void beyond fissures in the rock."

[Withwnar]

as I never lost Amon Sûl its a bit hard to have an oppinion on the consequenses of an in- or destructable forge...?
Two sounds good in my ears, but it means that I myself will build it rather than it comes from/by an historic event, eh?

(In)destructibility is not a major issue. I just prefer not to make something indestructible for no reason: why couldn't anyone (including the player) tear down a forge? There always were consequences for doing so: it costs more per turn to build AP arrows. This is to prevent the player from destroying it after the AP ERs have arrived, hoping to get some cash.

Lodges are built by script (events), the Forge you must build yourself. It has always been this way and will remain so. The only difference (option 2) is that the Forge is now an upgrade instead of a separate building. So the Lodge in Amon Sul essentially disappears but of course the Forge will contain the Lodge capabilities: ER retraining, upkeep and the Healer ancillary trigger.

None of Durin's race would mine those caves for stones or ore, not if diamonds and gold could be got there.

. So much for that idea. Thanks for pointing that out guys (Minas Moth too).

Okay, how about this? They don't mine the Caves but they do mine the surrounding mountains. If there is iron in the Caves then there is sure to be iron in the rock around the Caves. Any Dwarf worth his salt would find it - just try and prevent him from mining it.

So the mining levels, costs and bonuses can be backed off, as Minas Moth suggested.

[Minas Moth]

..but they do mine the surrounding mountains..

but then they aren't at hornburg are they? if they mine surrounding mountains where would you put them? still have them their cavern at Helms Deep, but going to work somewhere else? that's rather a long shot...

what i could think off, as potential idea is to collect the fee for seeing those caves. you know like museum ticket, but i don't how that worked in the ME. maybe it did, maybe it didn't... but if the dwarves come to admire that place and not to work it, then they would maybe/perhaps pay some money to those who are there and take care of that stone wonder...

[Withwnar]

collect the fee for seeing those caves. ... the dwarves come to admire that place

Gimli alluded to it. It feels more like a peacetime thing though.

but then they aren't at hornburg are they? if they mine surrounding mountains where would you put them? still have them their cavern at Helms Deep, but going to work somewhere else? that's rather a long shot...

I meant the mountain rock around the caves, not the mountains that surround Helms Deep. But even if they were mining nearby - outside the walls - instead of at the rear of Helm's Deep I don't think it's too big a stretch. Their home is the Caves - a half hour walk to work is not too much.

The whole income thing can be dropped. It doesn't need to make money. But I do wonder that if Aglarond became such an important realm, what were all the Dwarves doing with their time there?

[Ngugi]

Rent? ^^
Or perhaps, as they still make a living somehow, they could increase trade the way markets do? As a settlement ought to attract traveling dwarven merchants to the Hornburgs and regions gain?

[Alekhine]

I definitely prefer the forge as an upgrade.

About the mines thing:
I'm not a lore expert, but dwarves=mines. And IIRC, they were the ones to make a new door for Minas Tirith made of mithril and steel, and improved the layout of the city. They also repaired the hornburg. And the resources to do so do not come from only staring the caves, as glittering as they may be.

And about the Cave pic: I looked through the CoW mod files and there may be something useful, but I'm not sure if they would give permission.

[Withwnar]

I definitely prefer the forge as an upgrade.

Yep, me too. It is done.

I'm not a lore expert, but dwarves=mines. And IIRC, they were the ones to make a new door for Minas Tirith made of mithril and steel, and improved the layout of the city. They also repaired the hornburg. And the resources to do so do not come from only staring the caves, as glittering as they may be.

Precious little is said on the matter. They must have shipped the mithril in from elsewhere and I suppose they could have gotten the steel from anywhere. I imagine that the Minas Tirith and Hornburg works were mostly stone.

And about the Cave pic: I looked through the CoW mod files and there may be something useful, but I'm not sure if they would give permission.

It's worth asking.

[Nemesis_GR]

Hey withwnar i remember using this sumbod back in 2.1 and i really liked the concept.Nice to see that u are updating to 3.1!

IIRC there has been some discussion about a rohan riders building for gondor and a gondor inf building for rohan a long time ago.That would be nice.
Btw imo you should pay to get these units-like funding their expedition or something.They are for free now right?Maybe i am wrong...

Keep up the good job!

[Alekhine]

So, any news from the CoW people?

P.S: I don't really like the current elven ranger model, so I did this (I didn't model it, I just merged diferent units). They look cool, don't they?

[Withwnar]

Hey withwnar i remember using this sumbod back in 2.1 and i really liked the concept.Nice to see that u are updating to 3.1!

IIRC there has been some discussion about a rohan riders building for gondor and a gondor inf building for rohan a long time ago.That would be nice.
Btw imo you should pay to get these units-like funding their expedition or something.They are for free now right?Maybe i am wrong...

Thanks, sorry, I missed this post. Yes, somebody had the Gondor-Rohan idea some time back though I never pursued it. Well, I hadn't pursued anything in this submod until this Glittering Caves idea came about. Maybe, possibly, one day but to be honest I think that Gondor would be last on my list: they seem to get 90% of the attention already.

Paying for units: it is true that you don't pay to receive them but you do pay for upkeep and retraining, which over a long campaign would far exceed any initial cost. Unless they live their lives as garrison units of course. Elven Rangers are an exception: they are completely free. The idea being that they know how to provide food etc. for themselves and there are so few of them anyway.

Thanks for the suggestion. I like the way that the Glittering Caves make you do something first. Not much (form alliance, upgrade building) but it is something. I might think about this for the other parts as well, in the future.

So, any news from the CoW people?

I haven't asked. Thanks for the pictures mate: I didn't see those before. The small mine one is good, though a little too "mine" looking for this I think. Anyway, I have a few ideas that I would like to try out first and I have been too busy to get to that part.

P.S: I don't really like the current elven ranger model, so I did this (I didn't model it, I just merged diferent units). They look cool, don't they?

Some nice work there. You don't like the ERs? Oh well, each to his own. I think that the Sentinels are one of the best looking units in the game - certainly the most Silvan Elf looking. They just look "foresty", as Silvans should, and Elven Rangers too. Hoods would be nice though.

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Anyway, an update for the Glittering Caves...

I have decided to put on hold the notion of mines etc. as a building upgrade.

Instead, there will be something quite different as an optional income source. Something that Gimli mentioned - and about 8000 years later, Minas Moth - "Dwarves would pay gold to see them". Scripted missions to escort Dwarves from their mountain holds to Helm's Deep.

It's a looong journey and a good chance that you won't make it back alive. So the reward is large but not large enough to cover sending anything more than a few units and still make a profit.

Many thanks to Curufin who has made a couple of strat map models for this, including a Dwarf miner complete with pickaxe accessory.

[Minas Moth]

...It's a looong journey and a good chance that you won't make it back alive...

so, do th dwarves on road belong to rohan or the dwarven faction? i'm little confused as to whom they belong to?

also, how this effect other nations standing towards you? will they consider those dwarves as trespassers what will affect your diplomatic standing with them, on a negative way i mean, or what? because, if that would make my neighbours pizzed then i wouldn't make dwarves tourists...

and thnx, 8000 years of wisdom, and you need me to discover it? or rediscover it

[Withwnar]

While waiting for your escort to reach them they are represented on the map by a Dwarven diplomat character. When you reach them they become a Rohan unit.

Don't wish to piss off Eriador by marching a small army through their lands? Become allies with military access. If that's too hard and you don't wish to annoy them: don't accept the mission.

[Withwnar]

Scripting malfunction. Looks like Isengard wants Helm's Deep...

[Ngugi]

Rally the HORDE!!

[Withwnar]

v1.3 is released. OPs updated. I'll do the change log later... I need sleep...

[paradamed]

Thanks. Will the updated version make it to the next MOS?

[Vifarc]

I don't really like the current elven ranger model, so I did this (I didn't model it, I just merged diferent units). They look cool, don't they?

Like you. Great!

[Withwnar]

Thanks. Will the updated version make it to the next MOS?

You're welcome. If and when it is included in MOS is up to the MOS team.

[Ngugi]

Must be! Or I use my magic and make it happend!

[Emperor of Hell]

Merging is easy luckily. I merged it with my submod in about 20 minutes