The arguement of God's existence: Conscious Awareness & our place in the world

[hellas1]

Hi all,

I was thinking along this line and it occurred to me:

God exists because I am conscious and I understand my relationship in and to the world and I can question why I have relative existence to the universe and do not experience the totality of existence as a human being with limited senses.

Very simple.

Comments?
hellas1

[Helm]

No that just means you have an imagination. Though being able to think beyond what we directly experience like that is a neat trick of our species, we would be more like animals if we couldn't.

[Shugo560]

No that just means you have an imagination. Though being able to think beyond what we directly experience like that is a neat trick of our species, we would be more like animals if we couldn't.

all animals think they just werent created with a soul god has given every single one of us, god created us in his own image till eve ate off the tree and we thought about everything, god loves every single one of us even though we choose the wrong paths in life

[Gordon Freynman]

IMO the conclusion that an omnipotent entity exists doesn't logically follow from the argument, and overall I find it even weaker than the Cosmological Argument.

[scarybandit]

IMO the conclusion that an omnipotent entity exists doesn't logically follow from the argument, and overall I find it even weaker than the Cosmological Argument.

He's actually about halfway through an Ontological expression of the Cartesian variety.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

That certainly is a start - for Metaphysics, not for the Thomistic God of Positive Attributes (), of course.

[Himster]

Hi all,

I was thinking along this line and it occurred to me:

God exists because I am conscious and I understand my relationship in and to the world and I can question why I have relative existence to the universe and do not experience the totality of existence as a human being with limited senses.

Very simple.

Comments?
hellas1

What if you were not conscious, what if you were brain damaged and couldn't recognise your relative existence? Would that mean that there is no god?

[Denny Crane!]

and do not experience the totality of existence as a human being with limited senses.

What tosh. Superhuman powers hellas? Everyone is a human being with limited sense.

[Sphere]

But by that token before something akin to human conciousness arose there was no God, and when human like conciousness is no longer around there will be no God.

That suggests more that God is a human invention more so than God actually existing.

(My above preposition is as absurd as the OP's and that is actually the point I am trying to make)

[SigniferOne]

This seems like a weak version of Descartes' argument. As regards specifically what the OP said, I don't see why merely conceiving of God makes it be true.

[hellas1]

@Denny Crane,

Please stop the acid attack towards me. I'm not talking about paranormal or parapsychology here. I just brought that up briefly. Cool out buddy.

@Everyone else:

What I mean in a clearer sense is this:

IF I am conscious of my relationship with everything, the question WHY? arises.

This is the metaphysic I'm working with.

Why is it that I can check my relationship with the external world & be conscious of and check my inner world of thoughts, musings, etc. objectively by briefly mentioning them, thinking about them and deeply expressing them in drawn out speech?

If matter = energy, which it is, then consciousness is merely energy relating to energy, right?
If this is true then WHY is this interplay of energy relating with energy happening at all?

Along this similar vein is the issue of trusting one's own thinking as being reliable.
How is it that any of you posting here "know" that your thinking is not the result of random collisions of secretions and such in the human brain and is therefore unsound?

Furthermore, Consciousness exists, however base or crude it is. What are the mathematical probabilities that consciousness arose from nothing? ZERO.

Life without an initial focal point of directed intelligence is an illogical theory & is false, or put in another way "God is the initial focal point of all creation, Chance does not factor, period."

hellas1

[Denny Crane!]

It isn't an acid attack Hellas it is just merely pointing out more of your nonsense. And if it doesn't make sense to Signifier One who is quite obviously the most intelligent and knowledgeable theist on the forums then you are really on shaky ground. You rest dualism on the most shakey of grounds by defining consciousness as energy with no basis and no evidence or even reasoning for this. It is dualism but without any explanation or exploration for where this conception of dualism comes from. I'm never going to be a dualist because it has been broken to many times as far as I'm concerned in philosophy, notably by Searle who in his philosophy of the mind neatly sidesteps being shoehorned either as a materialist or a dualist and instead argues that the mind is a property of the material, emergent behaviour as I call it.

But if I was to argue it, it would certainly be on predicate dualism as opposed to substance dualism but you explain none of these positions. You blithely assert something, hold it as truth, ramble on for a bit then determine that the probability is zero that it could emerge naturally just.....because. You then claim that life without an initial focal point of directed intellgence is an illogical theory (again no explanation as to why) then claim that god must be that focal point....because.

It isn't an acid attack, just me calling BS when I see BS. And that was a whole stinking mess of it I'm afraid.

[hellas1]

@Denny Crane,

Your eyesight is clearly failing my friend, time for glasses.

Matter = Energy, fact.

Human Brain = Matter, fact.

I am conscious, fact.

If I am conscious and I am ultimately energy, because matter is energy, then my consciousness is ALSO energy.

Question: WHERE did this energy come from? The Big Bang? O.K., let's say it did. The Big Bang had a starting point. What started the Big Bang? God's will.

What's there to misunderstand?

Please re-read and think about what I've posted.

hellas1

[Gordon Freynman]

What started the Big Bang? God's will.

What exactly to you have to support this? You've now essentially reduced your argument to the cosmological argument, minus the argument.

[Denny Crane!]

@Denny Crane,

Your eyesight is clearly failing my friend, time for glasses.

Matter = Energy, fact.

Great. This is hilarious but slightly painful. I'm not a great science person but this is fairly obvious.

Matter=energy is a meaningless statement. I suspect you are confused with mass-energy equivalence, that the mass of a body is a measure of its energy content. As for matter it is a vague term that means different things depending on which scientist you talk too.

So basing a grand (using the term loosely) theory around this idea of "matter=energy fact" is pretty meaningless. If were to go by the most common definition though it would not be as simple to say just energy=matter it would be to say matter is something which has energy and takes up space.

But that still doesn't really give you much to draw conclusions from, you can't understand the universe of that most base and simple statement.

Human Brain = Matter, fact.

I am conscious, fact.

If I am conscious and I am ultimately energy, because matter is energy, then my consciousness is ALSO energy.

Doesn't make it any more special than a rock though does it since the rock also has energy.

Question: WHERE did this energy come from? The Big Bang? O.K., let's say it did. The Big Bang had a starting point. What started the Big Bang? God's will.

What's there to misunderstand?

Please re-read and think about what I've posted.

hellas1

-sigh- so all of this just to state a prime mover argument? We don't know the origins or cause of the universe or existence and speculating the way you do is just meaningless wish fulfillment.

[Helm]

A rock only has physical energy while your mind is pure soul energy, the soul energy being transmitted from God, that being the Oneness we are created from as individuals. Just putting you straight on a few details.

[Denny Crane!]

A rock only has physical energy while your mind is pure soul energy, the soul energy being transmitted from God, that being the Oneness we are created from as individuals. Just putting you straight on a few details.

Soul energy?

Please stop trolling Hellas thread. I got here first.

[Helm]

And what is soul energy made from? The energy is love, seeing as God himself is love. And Gods love flows into the material universe somehow (I'm still trying to find a good explanation as to how this works) through your physical brain. And this is what forms the conscious mind. So love and the awe and inspiration that goes with this is is formed from your soul which is connected to the eternal loving God and the rest of you is based more on your physical ape like evolutionary qualities. Your animal nature will turn to dust on physical death but the part of you that is pure love will live eternally. Do you have any objections to this?

[Denny Crane!]

And what is soul energy made from? The energy is love, seeing as God himself is love. And Gods love flows into the material universe somehow (I'm still trying to find a good explanation as to how this works) through your physical brain. And this is what forms the conscious mind. So love and the awe and inspiration that goes with this is is formed from your soul which is connected to the eternal loving God and the rest of you is based more on your physical ape like evolutionary qualities. Your animal nature will turn to dust on physical death but the part of you that is pure love will live eternally. Do you have any objections to this?

Other than the fact that your just pulling things from your arse you mean?

[XSHEAFFEYX]

And what is soul energy made from? The energy is love, seeing as God himself is love.

Wait wait WAIT! What?
Okay, so if god loves everyone, and is omnibenevolent as some say, he can't hate "sodomite's", now theres a major gap - as from what i hear - homosexuals burn in hell for all eternity - like everyone who opposses Christianity....than i guess guess he doesn't love everyone/is not omnibenovolent which means you got facts wrong, so your other facts of yours could be wrong. If what you say is true - than the 75% or whatever amount of christians who are against homosexuals because of their religion are wrong, which means their facts aren't 100%, and if a large religion is split in half over one fact which may be out of the question anyway if god doesnt exist - than many other facts could be wrong. Therefore no matter what christianity is wrong to a degree on a very simple topic in their religion, so it is VERY possible that in much more sophisticated topics, their facts won't be, well.... fact.


EDIT:I accidently deleted a bit in the quote where it says god loves everyong....woops