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Thread: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

  1. #1
    Csatádi's Avatar Senator
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    Default Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    You may read here suggestions to create the Magyar faction before the foundation of the Christian kingdom.
    I will edit this post from time to time.

    Faction Name
    The m.gy.r consonants are sure (Arabic source) but the vowels were surely different than in the word Magyar. The first written Latin sources in the 13th century used the Moger (=Mogyer) and Mager (=Magyer) forms. Latin isn't able to note many Magyar sounds.
    The faction name might be Hétmagyar (modern), Hetumoger (12th century Latin) or Hétumogyer (12th century form, modern spelling). It means Seven Magyars, a reference to the 7 tribes.
    Otherwise the Magyar (Mogyer) Tribes also suitable. Magyar Törzsek in Hungarian.
    Or simply Mogyers-Magyers.

    Religion

    Shamanism. The priest called táltos (modern term) or tátus, tátos (archaic and old folksy forms). After taking Christianity (~1000) the táltos takes the 'pagan magus' role.
    The Kavars possibly had some muslim warriors in a small ratio.

    Team roster to the 9th-10th centuries

    Some written resources
    "... Now we'll speak about the system and order of the Turkics (that's how the Magyars are called in the Tactics), who have little or no difference from those of the Bulgars. This tribe is numerous and free-loving and has only one care, neglecting all other comforts and prosperity - to show courage against its enemies..."
    "... They are armed with swords, mails, bows and spears. Due to this most of them have a double weaponry in the battles, by wearing their spears on their shoulders and holding their bows in hands, using one or the other, depending on the case they have at hand. When they are chased, they overcome mainly with their bows.
    Not only they themselves are armed, but also the horses of the notables are covered in front with iron or felt.
    They pay great care and practice a lot in shooting from their horses."

    Western sources mentioned especially "horn bows", javelins or rather (cavalry) spears and leather caps or helmets (galea). The spear here is short 2-2,5m and not a knightly lance.

    Suggested army list:

    Cavalry:

    *Bők (Bodyguard unit) (lamellar or mail armor, round shield, longer spear and sabre) heavy horses with metal breastplate. Bows as decoration. But they can be imaginable as armored horse archers, too.
    *Rusz testőrök (Rus/Varagian Bodyguards). Saint Stephen possibly had them and not Magyars. Maybe the earlier rulers did, too.
    *Válogatott harcosok (chosen warriors) (good leather armor, steppe gambeson or mail, composite bow, sabre, small round shield) better unit. fast pony with mainly felt breastplate. This unit represents simply richer warriors who can afford some armor.
    *Ínek (~ the poors or commoners) (leather 'coat', steppe gambeson or kaftan, composite bow, short spear, 2m) If you want a military name use the 'lovasíjászok' (=horse archers) term, or Lövők (shooters). fast pony
    *Csikósok (=Wranglers) (young boys, composite bow, fokos axe) instead of peasants. fast pony

    *Válogatott kavarok (chosen Kavars) (lamellar armor or mail, composite bow, sabre, small round shield) better unit
    *Kavarok (from the 3 allied Khazar tribes) (composite bow, small maces and fokos type axes, maybe shield, kaftan, steppe gambeson and mail coats) joined around 830, later the chronicles called them 'Black Magyars' in the 11th century.

    *Besenyők (=Pechenegs) settled in the Carpathian basin in 931, some years after 955, in the reign of Saint Stephen and many times later. They appeared in smaller numbers. Without the lack of exact sources one tribe might be OK. They were horse archers like the rest. Unlike the Magyars they used small headed maces, too.
    *German knights. When Saint Stephen married Gisela (996) the Bavarian princess, many German knights came to Hungary with their troops.

    Spear, war-axe (fokos type) and small maces were the cheaper weapons. Spears were about 2 meters long.

    Infantry:
    Dismounted version of cavalry units

    30% of the cavalry should be Kavar. They were 3 Khazar tribes possibly Kwarazmians or Alans in origin.
    Magyar and other steppe settlements should be without walls this way they can defend them with cavalry.

    Székelyek (=Szeklers)
    The origin of the Székelys are disputed. According to the legends they were native in the Carpathian basin, mainly in the Hungarian Lowlands (near Várad). We might accept one thing they were here earlier than the Magyars. If your mod starts around the conquest of the Magyars (895) they might be present in the Carpathian basin. If earlier it is best to skip them and use only Avars. Their first known name was Sicul in the Latin source.
    Székelyek (=Szeklers) (composite bow, fokos war axe, kaftan, leather armor or coat, steppe gambeson). fast pony
    Székely előkelők (Szekler “notables”) (good leather armor, mail or lamellar armor, composite bow, sabre) better unit. heavy horse with felt or leather breastplate
    Their number should be one tenth compared to the Magyar army (Magyars+Kabars).

    You should use the armors which suits better to your game. If you follow Osprey and MTW you should add more metal armor to these guys, too. Helmets can be any type from the steppes, they need leather or chain “nape protector”.
    A modern military historian (B. Szabó János) suggested the notables might used silk armor instead of metal. It was lightweight and similarly effective. He mentioned this kind of armor was used by Greeks, too.

    They had a lot of horses so the horsemen should be cheap compared to the infantry. This can be an advantage compared to settled factions.
    Horses of Bodyguards and Válogatott vitézek: akhal teke http://www.akhalteke.org/web/karakum...tures!OpenView In short: bigger horses.
    The rest used steppe horses which looked like the taki horse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przewalski's_Horse, hucul http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hucul_pony or similar.


    The names and the armaments may changed e.g. shields can be ignored. Sources rarely mention shields. Or use the '1' modifier in the comment of the shield model group.

    Names
    Till the age of Saint István (Stephen) and the early christianity
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Male names
    Acsád
    Adony
    Ákus
    Álmus
    Apor
    Árpád
    Bánd
    Bátur
    Bese, Becse
    Berény
    Bod
    Bogát
    Boja
    Bojta
    Bonyha
    Bors
    Bot
    Botond
    Botos, Botus
    Bökény
    Buda
    Bulcsu
    Csaba
    Csanád
    Csege, Csegő
    Cseka, Cseke
    Előd
    Ete
    Ezelek
    Falicsi, Falsz
    Farkas, Forkos
    Gyeücsa (Géza in historical works)
    Hetény
    Hollós, Hollus
    Hódos, Hudus
    Huba
    Jelek, Ilek
    Jutos, Jutocsa
    Kadocsa
    Kál
    Kaplon
    Karád
    Karsa, Karcsa
    Kartal, Kortol,
    Kecsen, Kücsen
    Keled, Kelad
    Kerecse, Kerecsen
    Ketel
    Keve
    Kund
    Kósa
    Kölcse
    Kölpény
    Köncs, Köncse
    Kuppány
    Kurd
    Kusid
    Kuszán
    Lél
    Levedi, Levente, Levéd
    Makó
    Móg
    Nyárád
    Obus
    Ócsád
    Ond
    Öden
    Örkény, Örkönd
    Örs
    Súr
    Szabolcs
    Szecsőd
    Szemus, Szemes
    Szerénd
    Szoárd
    Szónuk
    Toksuny
    Tarcal
    Tarkacsu
    Tas, Tasi
    Tétény, Tühütüm
    Teveli
    Tormacsu, Tormás
    Turda, Torda
    Turul
    Vajk
    Vál
    Vata
    Zolta, Zoltán
    Zsolt, Solt
    Zsombor, Zombor

    Female names:
    Ajándék
    Ajnácska
    Áldáska
    Arany
    Arika
    Barót
    Bíbur
    Bogárd
    Bolda
    Buga
    Csente
    Cseperka
    Csillag
    Csuda
    Delin
    Déva
    Emese
    Emőke
    Enéh
    Fehéra
    Gilvád
    Gyöngy
    Hajna
    Havadi
    Hete
    Karoldu
    Kecse
    Köncse, Köcse
    Lelle
    Lente
    Mag
    Manga
    Rázdi
    Sáfély
    Saroltu
    Somocska
    Szecsőke
    Szépa
    Virág

    No surnames. Bynames would be difficult, because they used the 'son of' system.
    These names are mosly archaized. Names separated with a comma are variants. There are some Pecheneg names between them.


    From ~1000 you may use the Magyar mod name list without surnames. In some cases you need to add some extra names to rulers or other important persons.
    Last edited by Csatádi; August 20, 2011 at 02:45 PM.

  2. #2
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    Thanks mate! Realy helpfull!+rep!!
    I will also check this from time to time to add the new infos,pictures and what ever else in TGC's Magyar thread trying to complete this essensial ,to the mod's history, faction!
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  3. #3
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    Very very great! I will definitely keep watching this, it will come in useful soon...

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiđinn Veđr: Total War


  4. #4
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    So let me know if i understand it corectly.
    Faction name : Magyar Törzsek
    Religion around late 9th century: ??

    Province troops:
    Peseantry : *Csikósok (=Wranglers) (young boys, composite bow, war-axe) no armor/mounted unit.
    Commoners: (they start with no armor and can have one or two upgrades)
    *Ínek : Tier 1 no armor ,tier 2 leather or padded suits.
    Weapons: bow and short spear. both mounted and on foot?
    Medium units: (they start with padded or chain mails and can have atleast one upgrade.

    Ellite units: (they start with chain mails or scale/lamellar) with or without an upgrade.

    Province/local nobles: (the rich people that rule the local population in the name of the king but mostly on their name)!
    They can have some of the best available equipment acording to their faction with or without an upgrade.

    King's men:(the warriors that gathered in the "capital" around the king and protected his pallace or himself/his interests against foreign or domestic rivals and escort him to battle creating the hardcore of his army)
    We need one pallace guard unit and atleast one or two cavalry ones (one ranged and one lancer????).
    They have the best available armor provided by looting or as gift from the King (no upgrades).


    General's bodyguards: *Bők (metal scale or chainmail armor, round shield, longer spear and sabre) heavy horses with metal breastplate.

    Mercenaries : *Besenyők (=Pechenegs)

    Mercenaries via AOR:

    Units that can be added after an event:
    (christianity for example).
    *German knights.

    I can not understand the diferences between the rest of the units.
    Could you help me placing the rest of the units of your roster in those categories?
    TGC wont have castles as vanilla had...
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  5. #5
    Csatádi's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    Religion: shamanism. The priest called to táltos (modern term) or tátus, tátos (archaic and folksy terms). After taking Christianity (~1000) the táltos takes the 'pagan magus' role.
    The Kavars may had some muslim warriors in a small ratio.

    Pechenegs weren't mercenaries.

    The Kavar units might be "King's men" because they were commanded by the ruler. He had Magyars, too, of course.

    Válogatott harcosok might be a medium or elite unit.

    Székelyek's role depends on the period.

    We need to use dismounted units in total war because of the sieges but originally the Magyars had no infantry.

    A modern military historian (B. Szabó János) suggested the notables might used silk armor instead of metal. It was lightweight and similarly effective. He mentioned this kind of armor was used by Greeks, too.
    Last edited by Csatádi; March 12, 2011 at 09:49 AM.

  6. #6
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    So can you edit the list of reqruitment (red names)with your sugestions?
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  7. #7
    Matthćus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    question - what to do with flags ?
    its obviously too early for double cross, and probably for "Arpad" stripes too.
    should we (TGC mod) make something similar to your "early Hungarian rebels" ?
    they have flags with turan, griff, lion and other (imaginary or real) animals.
    any suggestions ?

    or could we even use your early rebel flags as they are ? would you allow that ?

  8. #8
    shikaka's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    There is no picture or writeup of the flag used in the 9-10th century.

    Now it is prosumed that it had the main symbol of a tribe, the turul.

    This is the flag used now on ceremonies by Hungary.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    For the christianized country a similar one is used, but with a cross, not with Turul.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    The next one is the double cross, after it the stripes.



    Once more the two pictures are assumptions, but these were used when deciding the "historical flag set" of Hungary.

  9. #9
    Csatádi's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    We have some banners and a symbol set with turuls. This can be completed to a full banner set.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Csatádi; May 02, 2011 at 12:30 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    its already completed...

  11. #11
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    Yes but what about the people Magyars recruited by their own will or by force in the regions they captured? Do we have any info about such units and the regions they should be apear?
    Also the units descriptions mention always sabres .What about straight swords as Osprey pictures showing?
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  12. #12
    Csatádi's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    I wrote about the allied auxiliary troops in the first post.
    Looted swords were used after the conquest of the Carpathian Basin.

  13. #13
    Sipipatrik's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    Ez külön mod lesz? Vagy a Magyar Modba lesz beépítve? :O

  14. #14
    Csatádi's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    This is an English forum so please use English.

    We use them to make battle videos like battle of Pozsony.

  15. #15
    Sipipatrik's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    So, this project going to be a different mod than Magyar mod? Or this is just a patch for Magyar mod?

  16. #16
    Csatádi's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    They will appear somewhere. The info is not public yet.

  17. #17
    Sipipatrik's Avatar Laetus
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    Oh, okay I understand it.

  18. #18
    Csatádi's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    First post updated

  19. #19
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    A huge THANKS for Dome for his help to TGC.
    We are honored that we recieve such high quality material as a gift.
    Thank you Dome.
    TGC fellowship.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  20. #20
    Dark Attila's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: Magyars in the 10th century and before Research thread

    Hello to all, Just wondering what is the status of this is this a possible pre-Christian era or (Dark-Age) Magyar Mod? Is anyone presently working on such a project?

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