Anyone else feels that CA will never manage to top Medieval 2 + SS?

[Abriael]

After having played all of the total war games since Shogun, and lately Empire and Napoleon, plus Shogun 2's demo (and having seen of the game basically everything that's there to be seen), I've come to the conclusion that Medieval 2 + Stainless Steel is the climax of the Total War experience, and that, especially due to the fact that Creative Assembly seems to going towards streamlining their game (read: dumbing down) as much as possible, and limiting moddability, it will never be topped in the future.

Sure, graphics are a little dated (not even that much, if you look at Shogun 2, it still has sprites, they still look ugly, and only some environments and some effects look significantly better, but it lacks the blood and dirt that SS includes and a lot of other little details), but the level of complexity and sandbox freedom is unmatched by all the Total War games released afterwards, including modded versions. Even sieges look significantly worse (only god knows how Creative assembly managed to go from the fairly decent and complex sieges in M2TW to the absolutely crap sieges of Empire and Napoleon, while managing to actually keep and worsen the pathing problems, and thought it was ok not to do any significant improvement in Shogun 2, besides adding some more walls that the soldiers can just climb like cockroaches. Sometimes you wonder if they live under a rock or if they just aren't that smart).

Mind you, I'm going to buy and play Shogun 2 as soon as it releases anyway, but I have the strong nagging feeling that I'll play one or two campaigns for a couple weeks, and then I'll be back to Medieval 2 and Stainless Steel, because from what I've seen/read, S2TW doesn't get even near to offer the same level of detail, research and scope, and I'm starting to doubt that any TW game in the future will.

Am I alone in this?

[ShockBlast]

You are not alone mate and many other mods are over the abilities of CA.

[Makrell]

Nah, ca can easily top m2tw with mods or without em

[ShockBlast]

Nah, ca can easily top m2tw with mods or without em

You mean CA getting a game that can match SS ? HA ... i would like to see that and it would be a pleasure to be wrong.

[Abriael]

Nah, ca can easily top m2tw with mods or without em

Care to provide an example of anything made by CA afterwards that tops modded m2tw? because I honestly have trouble finding even a single significant feature in the later games.

The only thing that comes to mind is the ability to aim artillery to a ground spot (which is counterbalanced by the horribly glitched aim when artillery is aimed at units, and will fire invariably at the unit's side).
Everything else is a step back, from the first to the last feature IMHO, without even counting the many features that heve been simply removed in the dumbing down process.

[Lord Humungus]

The only thing that comes to mind is the ability to aim artillery to a ground spot (which is counterbalanced by the horribly glitched aim when artillery is aimed at units, and will fire invariably at the unit's side).

Hmm, pretty sure it's not entirely new feature, I remember there was a way to aim artillery at the ground in MTW1

So, CA fully adopted "copy-paste" designing method, get ready for even worse RTW2 and MTW3!

[Makrell]

Graphics and sound and such.
But empire cant really be seen as the same due to empire being more gunpowder based. Wait till shogun 2 arrives and you can compare more

[ShockBlast]

Graphics and sound and such.
But empire cant really be seen as the same due to empire being more gunpowder based. Wait till shogun 2 arrives and you can compare more

Do you think this thread is a joke?

Graphics?We are playing a strategy game here not a bloody shooter and even with the new graphics on the newer games the M2 engine looks very good.

Graphics shouldn't even be rated in a strategy game,features and few bugs that makes a game great not ''shinies''.

95% of the time you will be zoomed out anyway.

[Makrell]

Do you think this thread is a joke?

Graphics?We are playing a strategy game here not a bloody shooter and even with the new graphics on the newer games the M2 engine looks very good.

Graphics shouldn't even be rated in a strategy game,features and few bugs that makes a game great not ''shinies''.

95% of the time you will be zoomed out anyway.

But anyhow as i was saying wait for TWS2

you mean that engine that still uses sprites in 2011?

Also, you may not have noticed that Shogun 2 features armies of clones, with basically no variation from soldier to soldier (which is entirely ridiculous in a feudal Japan setting), a very significant graphical step back from the nice degree of equipment variation you see even in vanilla M2TW.

Armies of clones is a good setting as it allows for a better and more specialized AI, potentlially handcrafted AI for each unit and not each type

[ShockBlast]

But anyhow as i was saying wait for TWS2

It's the same bloody faction with different skins and a few AOR and ZOR units how can that compete with SS ?

Armies of clones is a good setting as it allows for a better and more specialized AI, potentlially handcrafted AI for each unit and not each type

You didn't understood what he said.
When he says clones he refers to the fact that all units look the same in a squad,if you take a look at M2 the members of the squad have different armours.

[Abriael]

But anyhow as i was saying wait for TWS2

We already saw the demo, we already read everything that's been written and saw plenty movies. What exactly still isn't known about TWS2?

Armies of clones is a good setting as it allows for a better and more specialized AI, potentlially handcrafted AI for each unit and not each type

Ahem, what exactly does utter lack of variation in appearence have to do with AI? By the way, if the demo and the movies are anything to go by, the AI in S2 is just as lacking as in the previous games. They even still have suicide generals.

[Makrell]

We already saw the demo, we already read everything that's been written and saw plenty movies. What exactly still isn't known about TWS2?



Ahem, what exactly does utter lack of variation in appearence have to do with AI? By the way, if the demo and the movies are anything to go by, the AI in S2 is just as lacking as in the previous games. They even still have suicide generals.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=429849 The AI isnt that bad.
And suicide generals is a bug due to generals haviing to many hitpoints and defense, making the AI think generals are OP
And you havent seen the full game, what do you learn about the game from movies, not anything at all

[Abriael]

Graphics and sound and such.
But empire cant really be seen as the same due to empire being more gunpowder based. Wait till shogun 2 arrives and you can compare more

you mean that engine that still uses sprites in 2011?

Also, you may not have noticed that Shogun 2 features armies of clones, with basically no variation from soldier to soldier (which is entirely ridiculous in a feudal Japan setting), a very significant graphical step back from the nice degree of equipment variation you see even in vanilla M2TW.

[Sarisophoros]

CA wont ever even try to top any mod. They are a company, thus their only goal is to make money by selling their product. The game is for them a product, they dont think about it like something that must be near perfect. It was made, released and that is done for them. They look how to make more and sell them even better. People who make mods take uncomparably more time, do more research to make their idea come to be in the games engine. Look at the original units from RTW and M2TW. They all look the same, general, like some figure based game and that is enough for CA. Footman, horseman, archer and youre set. In M2TW they only made a difference by adding different men in one unit. Oh, and canons. The graphical improvement actually helps the game. But the first thing to look for in the game is gameplay itself, the range of options of how to play on different levels and the way you combine them and of course historical accuracy. There, the original falls behind the mods. So I think for sure that CA will always only cover the basics, say thats enough and release it. Forgot to say, I agree with ShockBlast, the important thing is complexity of the thing and not the wrapping. Shiny pictures in a game like this mean little because you have to think the situation ahead in few directions. And for me, that thinking about what to do with what you have against what they have is the best part of the game.

[Ferdiad]

CA wont ever even try to top any mod. They are a company, thus their only goal is to make money by selling their product. The game is for them a product, they dont think about it like something that must be near perfect. It was made, released and that is done for them. They look how to make more and sell them even better. People who make mods take uncomparably more time, do more research to make their idea come to be in the games engine. Look at the original units from RTW and M2TW. They all look the same, general, like some figure based game and that is enough for CA. Footman, horseman, archer and youre set. In M2TW they only made a difference by adding different men in one unit. Oh, and canons. The graphical improvement actually helps the game. But the first thing to look for in the game is gameplay itself, the range of options of how to play on different levels and the way you combine them and of course historical accuracy. There, the original falls behind the mods. So I think for sure that CA will always only cover the basics, say thats enough and release it. Forgot to say, I agree with ShockBlast, the important thing is complexity of the thing and not the wrapping. Shiny pictures in a game like this mean little because you have to think the situation ahead in few directions. And for me, that thinking about what to do with what you have against what they have is the best part of the game.

In the end they need to make money, if they wanted to and had the resources I'm sure they could top M2 easily.

[rummtata]

I guess the bottom line here is: We do not represent the mainstream of video game consumers. Not even the mainstream of this specific genre. As such, our economic relevance is near zero.

Whether that's a good or a bad thing is left for you to decide ;-)

[TheDougem]

you mean that engine that still uses sprites in 2011?

Also, you may not have noticed that Shogun 2 features armies of clones, with basically no variation from soldier to soldier (which is entirely ridiculous in a feudal Japan setting), a very significant graphical step back from the nice degree of equipment variation you see even in vanilla M2TW.

Firm negative here. What graphics settings are you playing on?

I've done a significant amount of gameplay in the demo, and the degree of variety from unit to unit is stunning. I also have not noticed the sprite issue - if they are there, it occurs at such a zoom level as to be nigh unnoticeable.

In the end, CA makes a product that has to make money - I still think though that perhaps sometime they should revisit MTW 2, and approach the modding community. A partnership of a small CA team working directly with modders to release an official MTW2K DLC themed along SS probably could make some money for them.

The problem: show me the big time game studio executive who thinks out of the box enough to attempt something like that. It ain't gonna happen with the current generation of execs, I think :/

[Abriael]

Firm negative here. What graphics settings are you playing on?

I've done a significant amount of gameplay in the demo, and the degree of variety from unit to unit is stunning. I also have not noticed the sprite issue - if they are there, it occurs at such a zoom level as to be nigh unnoticeable.

In the end, CA makes a product that has to make money - I still think though that perhaps sometime they should revisit MTW 2, and approach the modding community. A partnership of a small CA team working directly with modders to release an official MTW2K DLC themed along SS probably could make some money for them.

The problem: show me the big time game studio executive who thinks out of the box enough to attempt something like that. It ain't gonna happen with the current generation of execs, I think :/

I'd say you're easily stunned, my friend

There's no need for official partnerships. All that's needed is the release of official modding tools to involve the community in fixing and expanding what the team can't fix and expand themselves for whatever reason.

There are plenty executives smart enough to think like that, see Bethesda, Bioware... Hell, even console studios are putting a lot of attention on user-created content. Just look at Little Big Planet.

Mods are what keep a game's community alive for a much longer time, keeping the attention on a franchise high between a title and it's sequel, and directly raising the value of such franchise.

The fact that CA is moving away from a moddable engine is a clear step back, and will hurt them in the long run. It's not hard at all to predict that Shogun 2 will be forgotten and shelved fast by a lot of people
if modders don't find a way to fix all the crap CA will inevitably put in. The same thing would have happened with all previous CA games. They aren't exactly masters of polish, and they demonstrated it time and time again.

[Erwin Rommel]

you mean that engine that still uses sprites in 2011?

Also, you may not have noticed that Shogun 2 features armies of clones, with basically no variation from soldier to soldier (which is entirely ridiculous in a feudal Japan setting), a very significant graphical step back from the nice degree of equipment variation you see even in vanilla M2TW.

Sigh. Thats coz the demo is based on an old code that also has AA disabled.

And as for the featuring the clone, clearly are you ING trolling or what? Have you seen the Matchlock Sohei? The Nodachi? Hell even the Ashigaru?

Wait, maybe you dont even know what those japanese words mean.

[Abriael]

Reading posts above I came to conclusion that you are very (but very) young people. Look, you can have a car, plane, what ever you want made custom for you. This game is to CA the same as a car is to car manufacturers. If you were to send a normal mail to the CA team in which you tell them to make the best mod ever (give instructions what you want) and that you will pay what ever, you would see a masterpiece in recoed time. But otherwise this market is too small for them to even notice. The only way they remember RTW or M2TW is when they pass a poster of it in the hallway. Lots off you say: they have to think out of the box. Come on, dont be naive. They have thought this thing out from every angle and everything that you might think of they already know about but to improve the game (a car) to that extent is simply a waste of time for them. And just a thought about the best mod. EVERY mod has something to offer in gameplay sence, its just that it might take some time playing it to understand its point. And for younger ones here, not one mod, but seriously, not one, even TATW, RS2, EB ect. wasnt awaited, expected, held people on these forums more in suspense than RTR6. When that mod came out the world stopped and forums were empty.

I see some people can't really avoid making silly assumptions on other based on the theory that them having different beliefs, opinions and experiences means them being young, lacking maturity or having some other flaw that impair their judgement.
Funny how this attitude is actually the least mature with which to face a forum discussion.

Just for the record, I'm 33, I have quite a bit of experience in the gaming industry, and I have been an active gaming journalist longer than I can remember, besides working in several fields of audio-visual and entertainment production and marketing. So no, sorry, my opinion doesn't come from youth or lack of experience.

If you think that CA or any other game developer would be able to make the "best mod ever" just for the fact that they are "professional" game developers, I'm afraid that you express quite a lot of naiveté. Being a game developer isn't some kind of all-encompassing brand of quality, dedication and ability. It's, most of the times, a matter of finding oneself in the right place at the right time, and having the right contacts.
Nothing ensures than a professional game developer is immune from incompetence, and several blatant and glaring design flaws present in every single Total War game (and even more in the latest ones), show quite clearly that CA has no immunity from incompetence as well.

This without mentioning that "professional" game developers tend to be much more detached from the reactions to their products than they should (a thing that doesn't affect modders, that normally bear the weight of their mistakes much more directly), and CA is no different.

I'm sorry, but your idea of gaming-related marketing is extremely simplistic. Complexity, depth and modding are what keep a game selling for a long time past the first months, and those sales are definitely a nice slice of income for any developer/publisher's coffers.

People still buy Oblivion or Medieval 2 now, several years after release, mostly because mods are keeping them alive, and the word of mouth generated by those mods, also generates not only new purchases of the old games themselves, but also purchases for the sequels.

Ps. Why are people debating the merits of other mods when the OP was clearly asking if CA could top M2TW+SS? This is after all the SS forum and he made no reference to the quality of other mods.

I guess some feel an honest need to "help" others experience others mods, but base that on the often misplaced assumption that if someone doesn't love their favourite mod, it's because they didn't try it.
Others are simply trolling, somehow offended by the fact that some (a lot, actually) people dare to enjoy Stainless Steel more than their mods of coiche.

Sigh. Thats coz the demo is based on an old code that also has AA disabled.

I've heard the "the demo is based on old code!" excuse from so many developers, and have seen it blown away by a release that featured very little improvement so many times, that I can only have a chuckle when I see just another fanboy perpetuating it

Demos are a marketing and promotion tool. If you think CA put any less than their best effort in a tool that's supposed to promote their game to a quite selective playerbase released 20 days before the game (and most of those 20 days are to be used for printing and distribution), I'm afraid I see quite a bit of a delusion there.

And as for the featuring the clone, clearly are you ING trolling or what? Have you seen the Matchlock Sohei? The Nodachi? Hell even the Ashigaru?

I've seen all there's to be seen. The degree of variation between the same unit doesn't get even near that featured on Medieval 2. Hell, most units have the only variation in the facial texture (or better, the area of the texture mapped for the face), and even there the variation is negligible and hardly noticeable.
And in feudal Japan, where industrial production did not exist, this is absolutely laughable.

Wait, maybe you dont even know what those japanese words mean.

I don't doubt for a second that I know their meaning much better than you. Thank you very much