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  1. #1
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Conservative argument for HSR

    And defense for Obamas HSR proposal.

    Wanted to post it first and come back to it later so ill post the article and start the discussion... I am obviously in favor of this and I already learned some new things like every airport in this country has been built by the state and the government still gives out subsidies to Airlines.

    http://seattletransitblog.com/2011/0...gh-speed-rail/
    Article

    [Note from Martin: This is not the "bash Republicans" thread. Please keep the discussion on high speed rail and subsidies for other modes of transport.]

    The Republicans are very keen on scraping Obama’s high speed rail initiative, but I think there’s a fairly solid conservative argument in its favor.

    First, air travel is not successful as a result of the free-market. For starters, no airline has ever built an airport. Every commercial passenger airport in the US was built with public money, and the Federal Aviation Administration still gives out $3.4 billion in airport construction grants annually, in addition to paying for air traffic control – a subsidy on the order of $7 billion this year. Moreover, most of the development costs for the initial passenger aircrafts’ construction was directly paid for by the defense department, and it still subsidizes aircraft construction – though to not especially successful results.

    The Airline industry’s most profitable era was during the existence of the Civil Aeronautics Board from 1940 to 1984. During that time, the CAB set ticket prices and assigned specific airlines to specific routes. Since deregulation started in 1978, most major domestic carriers have gone bankrupt along with hundreds of smaller ones. Even post-deregulation, the Airline Industry received an $18.6 billion bailout in 2001. Not exactly a free-market result.

    A similar story can be told for highways (never mind the recent bailouts for the large auto-makers), but there’s not really a point digging into it here. The highways were built by the government, and subsidized by governments at all levels, that’s obvious. The Federal government has been billions into highways since 1920.

    Second, high speed rail would encourage Federalism. Most conservatives want the Federal government out of local decision making. Paul Weyrich’s argument for funding guarantees for transit work the same for high speed rail. The High Speed Rail funds the Federal government promised were guaranteed, or would be, if the Republicans would not cut the budget. Playing will0the-Feds-won’t-they game removes power from the local governments and gives it all to the Feds who can remove the funds at a whim.

    Third, high speed rail would encourage growth in small towns along the line. An HSR line on the Amtrak Cascades would stop in several smaller cities, and those cities would get a boost in population and development from commuters who would rather live there than live in sprawled-out suburbs or exurbs or would rather take the train than drive. These towns would have a great sense of community and continuity, and could become natural bastions of a certain type of conservatism, though probably not the Scott Walker sort. Depending on land-use patterns around the stations, you might even bring back the “Main Street” of old.

    Fourth, high speed rail would improve commerce and the economy. Almost all conservatives agree that enhancing commerce is on the short list of things the government should do. High speed rail would help improve the flow of goods and people across the country, while helping our main national security goal of oil supply safety. High speed rail is certain to create jobs, create housing and boost the economy.

    Interestingly, Conservatives in Canada and the UK are behind high-speed rail, while conservatives in America seem to hate nothing more. It’s too bad, because high speed rail could help many of conservatives’ state goals. So they will try and probably succeed in cutting the program, while everyone pretends that 18 40 daily flights from Portland to Seattle is a free-market, pro-conservative outcome.


    One of the comments:
    In Fresno and Bakersfield, for example, the local Republican political establishment – itself quite conservative – very strongly supports the high speed rail project. That has also been true of their state legislators. Unfortunately, it’s not true of their Congressional reps, who have fallen under the ideological spell of the anti-rail crowd and are dancing to the Koch Brothers’ tune, deciding that it’s more important to please their oil company donors than it is to keep local Republican elected officials happy.
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; February 28, 2011 at 04:12 PM.

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    I actually do really like the idea of HSR's but iit would be better to have it done privately.

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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    I actually do really like the idea of HSR's but iit would be better to have it done privately.
    Why would a private one be better? Why would a private one find this a good idea to invest tens of billions with the usual delays and extra billions(often even doubling) ahead in upfront-investments, without making a dime any time soon(talking several years here)? And how do you imagine (considering what I just said)what the price for a ticket would be, how the safety is handled, and how the overall service would look like(history shows not better or cheaper than public even without them needing to earn back the investing I spoke of)?
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    Why would a private one be better? Why would a private one find this a good idea to invest tens of billions with the usual delays and extra billions(often even doubling) ahead in upfront-investments, without making a dime any time soon(talking several years here)? And how do you imagine (considering what I just said)what the price for a ticket would be, how the safety is handled, and how the overall service would look like(history shows not better or cheaper than public even without them needing to earn back the investing I spoke of)?
    Maybe your country doesn't have the terrible history of public sector projects spiralling to many times their original estimates.....good for you.

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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Maybe your country doesn't have the terrible history of public sector projects spiralling to many times their original estimates.....good for you.
    I worked in construction for 10 years and my father has a small construction-company since I can remember, and can tell you in all confidence that the private-sector has no better record when it comes to estimating costs for projects.

    Some sectors bring along their own complications and while I certainly don't believe construction should be public, I do believe certain net-intensive sectors offering the utmost important public services making society work need to be in the public hands. Especially when they have a terrible track-record in these private hands. I remember another thread recently where you complained about the British railway system btw.

    Im also convinced we would have seen energy-use revolutions by now if we didn't turn the energy-grid into a few giant stock-indexed money making machines for a selective group of individuals.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    I worked in construction for 10 years and my father has a small construction-company since I can remember, and can tell you in all confidence that the private-sector has no better record when it comes to estimating costs for projects.

    Some sectors bring along their own complications and while I certainly don't believe construction should be public, I do believe certain net-intensive sectors offering the utmost important public services making society work need to be in the public hands. Especially when they have a terrible track-record in these private hands. I remember another thread recently where you complained about the British railway system btw.

    Im also convinced we would have seen energy-use revolutions by now if we didn't turn the energy-grid into a few giant stock-indexed money making machines for a selective group of individuals.
    Well yes British Rail is a disaster and it is still very much in the public sphere despite private operators the bulk of it, the most important parts are a part of the public part. While they are making inroads on improving it, that definitely will not lower the prices.

    I'll be opting for flying for the foreseeable future and at times I'm doing that at 1/10th the cost or if not driving at 1/4 the cost.

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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Maybe your country doesn't have the terrible history of public sector projects spiralling to many times their original estimates.....good for you.
    Don't private construction projects also have spiraling costs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Border Patrol View Post
    Orange County. Personally I prefer toll roads because I will pay the two bucks for each use and they're always less congested.
    Uh those toll roads are less congested because no one that doesn't live there has any reason to ever use those roads. If all Freeways in So Cal were toll-ways there would be just as much congestion AND they would be more expensive.

    Ever driven the Jersey Turnpike?
    Last edited by chilon; March 06, 2011 at 02:00 PM.
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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    Don't private construction projects also have spiraling costs?



    Uh those toll roads are less congested because no one that doesn't live there has any reason to ever use those roads. If all Freeways in So Cal were toll-ways there would be just as much congestion AND they would be more expensive.

    Ever driven the Jersey Turnpike?
    If private industry screws the pooch thats fine they either bear the cost or cut the project. Try looking up Holyrood to see an example of public construction in Britain.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    Why would a private one be better? Why would a private one find this a good idea to invest tens of billions with the usual delays and extra billions(often even doubling) ahead in upfront-investments, without making a dime any time soon(talking several years here)? And how do you imagine (considering what I just said)what the price for a ticket would be, how the safety is handled, and how the overall service would look like(history shows not better or cheaper than public even without them needing to earn back the investing I spoke of)?
    The US is trillions of dollars in debt. Most of the American population is too spread out for a high speed rail to be able to make a profit. Why the hell should taxpayer money be wasted on a railroad? If people want a railroad, it can be made by the private sector. If the government makes a railroad, it obviously won't be cost effective, it won't be used by large numbers of people, it won't do anything except waste more money.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy View Post
    The US is trillions of dollars in debt. Most of the American population is too spread out for a high speed rail to be able to make a profit. Why the hell should taxpayer money be wasted on a railroad? If people want a railroad, it can be made by the private sector. If the government makes a railroad, it obviously won't be cost effective, it won't be used by large numbers of people, it won't do anything except waste more money.
    Several conservatives have said this now, but I guess they didn't read the article.

    NONE of the our major transportation systems were built solely with private money. NONE. The government made the highways, the government paid for the airports, the government can pay private companies to make railroads. It wouldn't be the government building it, government money would be. It's called contracting. Man, are conservatives this ignorant of stuff?

    And for those saying that rail won't work, maybe not all over right now, but in certain places, it is needed, and in the near future, it could be quite cheap compared to other forms of travel. Air travel for one. Someone mentioned air travel being cheaper. Maybe in some cases, but not in all, and defintiely not looking into the future as fuel costs rise. It's nice to plan for the future.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Several conservatives have said this now, but I guess they didn't read the article.

    NONE of the our major transportation systems were built solely with private money. NONE. The government made the highways, the government paid for the airports, the government can pay private companies to make railroads. It wouldn't be the government building it, government money would be. It's called contracting. Man, are conservatives this ignorant of stuff?

    And for those saying that rail won't work, maybe not all over right now, but in certain places, it is needed, and in the near future, it could be quite cheap compared to other forms of travel. Air travel for one. Someone mentioned air travel being cheaper. Maybe in some cases, but not in all, and defintiely not looking into the future as fuel costs rise. It's nice to plan for the future.
    The government is not the reason highways exist, don't be absurd; for quite some time, private entities made roads and charged those who used them. Hell, in Ontario, one of the best highways is a privately owned toll-highway. If the government wasn't making the roads, entrepreneurs would be as people require roads to use cars.

    Railroads were often paid for by the US government, but then that was an INCREDIBLY corrupt business that I don't think you want as an exemplar. The government paid for railroad by the distance alone, so crooked railroad companies built railroads of shoddy materials along terribly inefficient routes. More honest companies were often forced out of business by subsidized giants.

    Air travel is heavily regulated to a rather extreme degree. To say air travel wouldn't be present without the government sponsored airports is like saying guns would not exist without government sponsored gun factories (in a country with the mythical ideal of complete gun control).

    Oh, and government money being used to pay for private entities to build the projects is still the exact same problem. The money is STILL coming from people that would have spent it more productively themselves, it just so happens to be going to a private entity rather than a public one.

    Meanwhile, we miss all the stuff that COULD have been made with that money, had it not been taken by the government. How many new inventions could have been funded with the money being tossed at a railway? How many cures for diseases, new industries, new businesses, etc could have been created had the government not taken the money? We will never know unfortunately, but we will get to see what the government uses its cash on, be it something marginally useful if unnecessary (roads, etc) or something completely wasteful (bombs for Afghanistan, guns for the Drug War, etc)
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  12. #12
    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    I actually do really like the idea of HSR's but iit would be better to have it done privately.
    The article made a good point.... the government makes the huge investments and spends the cash developing the infrastructure and engines and private sector groups take over. Like in Air Travel. The early cargo plane designs were developed by the US Military. Airports were subsidized and Air Traffic control still is. Just eliminate the last one for and giggles and force the Private sector to take over the costs and your see plane tickets rise in costs.

    So why would it be better for the private sector to develop HSR lines on their own. What sort of magic feeling do private sector groups have that a government agency doesnt. Doesnt make any sense. A corporation could just as easily pull out because of the costs... so now your thinking why should the government invest in something that may have to be subsidize. Easy answer - Modern society. Long answer - it creates jobs and grows the economy.

    CA rail wont go unused. For one those living 2 hours away from LA can now take the train to the city in about 27 minutes? So how the would it not get used?
    Last edited by MathiasOfAthens; March 04, 2011 at 03:33 PM.

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    Bleda's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by MathiasOfAthens View Post
    Airports were subsidized and Air Traffic control still is. Just eliminate the last one for and giggles and force the Private sector to take over the costs and your see plane tickets rise in
    You don't think people are paying for those government subsidized expenses? Have you seen the amount of tax on an plane ticket? At least half the cost is tax and fees from the federal aviation admin.

    A few years ago I was flying around a lot for work. One might see an advertisement to fly Detroit to Atlanta for $90 airfare, but as you buy the ticket, you'll notice that the final cost could easily be $250 or more. $90 is what the airline was charging for covering their overhead, the remainder is the government overhead.


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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    if you got the money for it, why not and i do mean 'real money', not credit which you have to borrow from other countries.

    HSR is a luxury

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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    As a Californian that wants no part of this rail which I believe costs half our yearly budget...
    I could give a damn what conservatives think of their pork.

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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    got money?
    no?

    question answered

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    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    got money?
    no?

    question answered
    I guess the counter argument to that is with energy becoming more precious investment in infrastructure that is guaranteed to be used is a worthwhile investment. In the UK you can actually guarantee its use.

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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    I guess the counter argument to that is with energy becoming more precious investment in infrastructure that is guaranteed to be used is a worthwhile investment. In the UK you can actually guarantee its use.
    my impression is that for the infrastructure needed for HSR, there's going to be a massive overhaul that's going to cost more than the initial HSR tracks and the trains.

    london has a higher population density so i can see HSR being more useful and cost effective there-in california not so much for the fact that everyone practically gets around in their cars and aren't used to using public transport the way you and i are used to. it's definitely a car culture and i don't see that changing soon.

    also, HSRs have the potential to compete quite effectively with domestic airplanes-so you're also going up against the brick wall of that particular lobby group

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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    A California rail will go unused. A plane ticket will be cheaper than the estimated rail ticket cost for LA to SF. And given the exorbitant estimate of the project, I'd say it's a damned stupid idea.

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    MathiasOfAthens's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Conservative argument for HSR

    HSR is needed from Seattle to LA. Not so much in the midwest...

    Think it would be like a half an hour commute from the bay area to Sacramento? Maybe an hour idk. I commute to work by bus and it takes me an hour. Imagine commuting by HSR and cutting a 2 or a 1 hour commute by half.

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