Iran & America; allies masquerading as enemies

**Tajir** · February 26, 2011, 01:02 AM

In the two biggest conflicts America faces this century, Iran is on its side.

In Afghanistan, the US and Iran are both staunchly anti-Taliban. In fact, even the Russians and Chinese are funneling money and weapons to anti-Taliban groups such as the Northern Alliance, and all 3 states were funding the Northern Alliance at a time when the US was still receptive to the Taliban.

In Iraq, both the US and Iran support the Shi'ite-led government and the various Shi'ite forces. It can be said that at one point, Iran supported Muqtada Al-Sadr, but they also supported the Iraqi security forces led by the Iranian-trained Badr Brigade. Also, Iran brokered the ceasefire between the two Shi'ite factions which effectively ended the main insurgency and allowed the US to start withdrawing.

The biggest threat facing both states is common and very clear today; Sunni Islamic fundamentalism. And despite the empty rhetoric, both countries are cooperating strongly behind closed doors. Unless they are blind to each others' existence, both sides should be aware that they're both supporting the same regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Their only friction seems to be Israel, and I think Iran only steps up its anti-Israeli rhetoric to win the support of Arabs in its bid for supremacy in the region, otherwise I don't think a single Iranian cares what happens in either Arab territory or Sunni Muslim regions, the Palestinian struggle is probably the least of their worries considering that their holy lands are in southern Iraq, not Jerusalem.

Discuss.

**Stark of Winterfell** · February 26, 2011, 01:32 AM

Iran and the United States definitely disagree on a good bit and don't have the best relations, but fortunately diplomats exist to ensure that both states can cooperate on the areas where they have common goals. No reason not to take on problems that beset them both.

**Tajir** · February 26, 2011, 01:48 AM

I actually see them cooperating on more things than they disagree on. They disagree on TV, but on the ground they are locked in union against their common enemies. Reality disagrees with rhetoric.

The more I look into this topic and what really happens on the ground, the more I realize that the US and Iran are the best of friends. Even Israel should thank Iran. Without Iran, nearby Arabs would have to take up the task of fighting Israel, and the opposition would no longer be moderate Iranian-backed factions like Hamas or Hezbollah, but more radical groups that Iran has helped destroy, like Jund Ansar-Allah, who would have been far more aggressive than the docile Hamas if they'd come to power.

The way I see it, Iran is creating the image of a moderate enemy; one that exists but won't harm you, all the while it helps you fight the real wolves in the forest.

**Lord Zhang Ku** · February 26, 2011, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by Tajir

I actually see them cooperating on more things than they disagree on. They disagree on TV, but on the ground they are locked in union against their common enemies. Reality disagrees with rhetoric.

The more I look into this topic and what really happens on the ground, the more I realize that the US and Iran are the best of friends. Even Israel should thank Iran. Without Iran, nearby Arabs would have to take up the task of fighting Israel, and the opposition would no longer be moderate Iranian-backed factions like Hamas or Hezbollah, but more radical groups that Iran has helped destroy, like Jund Ansar-Allah, who would have been far more aggressive than the docile Hamas if they'd come to power.

The way I see it, Iran is creating the image of a moderate enemy; one that exists but won't harm you, all the while it helps you fight the real wolves in the forest.

Iranians influencing anti-american militias in Iraq beg to differ. Also the seizure of several people near the Iraq/ Iran border over the last decade. As well as the Iranians trying to buy off Karzai at one point. Iran and the US don't exactly seem like allies, especially when they get people in the streets to yell death to america.

**Caliph** · February 26, 2011, 01:01 PM

Interesting theory Tajir. Although what about the 2006 Hizbullah-Israel war? Was that staged too to make Hizbullah look like heros?

**Tajir** · February 26, 2011, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Lord Zhang Ku

Iranians influencing anti-american militias in Iraq beg to differ. Also the seizure of several people near the Iraq/ Iran border over the last decade. As well as the Iranians trying to buy off Karzai at one point. Iran and the US don't exactly seem like allies, especially when they get people in the streets to yell death to america.

What Iraqi militias my friend? Iran only backed two militias - the Badr Brigade (part of Iraqi security) and the Mehdi army which are also part of the government. Coinciding in the end with America's agenda.

I'm not saying that Iran and America are direct allies, but they fight the same battles together because their interests in the region are the same; undermining Sunni Islamism and softening the middle east to get better leverage in the region.

Originally Posted by Caliph

Interesting theory Tajir. Although what about the 2006 Hizbullah-Israel war? Was that staged too to make Hizbullah look like heros?

Hezbollah is a Shi'ite organization, Iran will cross barriers to help them.

**♔Goodguy1066♔** · February 26, 2011, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Tajir

Without Iran, nearby Arabs would have to take up the task of fighting Israel...

Unthinkable! Arab countries? Invading Israel?!

If history has taught us anything, it's that Arab countries do not invade Israel. Thank God for Iran.

**Rolling Thunder** · February 26, 2011, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by ♔Goodguy1066♔

Unthinkable! Arab countries? Invading Israel?!

If history has taught us anything, it's that Arab countries do not invade Israel.

Not if they want to keep their armies intact, no.

**♔Goodguy1066♔** · February 26, 2011, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Rolling Thunder

Not if they want to keep their armies intact, no.

What about those 5 times Arab countries and their full-fledged armies warred with Israel?

**Rolling Thunder** · February 26, 2011, 09:04 AM

Interesting theory. Unfortunately, the Iranian government is still clinically insane and not to be trusted with any kind of nuclear weapon.

**Col. Tartleton** · February 27, 2011, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Rolling Thunder

Interesting theory. Unfortunately, the Iranian government is still clinically insane and not to be trusted with any kind of nuclear weapon.

No they aren't, it's an illusion. Iran uses religious rhetoric for propaganda. They gesture with one hand but move the chess pieces with the other. American policy is pragmatic. Iran is our enemy because it's more convenient to be enemies politically. Our real relationship is very different. Iran isn't going to nuke anybody. Iran is a modern liberal country masquerading as a radical force. It's misdirecting for power. They're not Arabs and they're barely Muslim. Iran is not part of the middle east. It's an entirely different culture. Iran is like China or Russia. We shouldn't lump them in with the middle east in policy. They're anti American because we supported Iraq and we're anti Iranian because they overthrew their Monarch. But that was decades ago. We ought to be friends. They should loosen their control of the people if only because it's hindering them.

**Super-Soviet** · February 27, 2011, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton

No they aren't, it's an illusion. Iran uses religious rhetoric for propaganda. They gesture with one hand but move the chess pieces with the other. American policy is pragmatic. Iran is our enemy because it's more convenient to be enemies politically. Our real relationship is very different. Iran isn't going to nuke anybody. Iran is a modern liberal country masquerading as a radical force. It's misdirecting for power. They're not Arabs and they're barely Muslim. Iran is not part of the middle east. It's an entirely different culture. Iran is like China or Russia. We shouldn't lump them in with the middle east in policy. They're anti American because we supported Iraq and we're anti Iranian because they overthrew their Monarch. But that was decades ago. We ought to be friends. They should loosen their control of the people if only because it's hindering them.

1) Iran is a Islamic Republic, founded on anti-Western ideals which practices Sharia Law. As much as it might be distressing for us nihilists in the West that it isn't just unfortunate misunderstandings that cause conflict in the world, we should never overlook concrete ideological and cultural differences. All your assumptions rest on a blind hope that they don't really believe what they say they believe.
2) In modern liberal countries, it isn't common practice for the Parliament to go into a bloodthirsty frenzy calling for the death of members of the opposition for the crime of daring to organise protests, nor is it a common practice amongst liberal nations to enforce a uniform dress code on women and stone women for adultery on a regular basis. Nor is it common practice that Modern Liberal Nations ban their own national anthem and replace it with a Revolutionary dirge.
3) Iran isn't a completely different culture by any stretch of the imagination. For most of it's history it's either ruled other Middle Eastern countries or been ruled by them. Huge segments of Iran's population are not of Persian descent, but Arab, Kurd or Turkic etc. It should also be noted that often in non-Arabic speaking countries, the Koran remains in it's original Arabic. Iran's native faith of Zarathustranism is not a significant force in Iran's national life, Iran is not barely Muslim but 98% Muslim. By this logic I suppose Afghanistan was not part of the Middle East but relapsed into a Middle Eastern country when the Taliban took power?

I agree Iran is far more modern than many people suppose but your clearly engaged in wishful thing.

**athanaric** · February 28, 2011, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by Super-Soviet

1) Iran is a Islamic Republic, founded on anti-Western ideals which practices Sharia Law.

It is now, but here's hoping there will be a revolution.

As much as it might be distressing for us nihilists in the West that it isn't just unfortunate misunderstandings that cause conflict in the world,

Maybe you are a nihilist, but most of us aren't. I can tell you who's definitely Nihilist though and that's the Islamic dictatorship in Iran. Sans some of the more level-headed figures, maybe.

we should never overlook concrete ideological and cultural differences.

That's true.

All your assumptions rest on a blind hope that they don't really believe what they say they believe.

I agree that that is a dangerous path to take. Cf. Hitler, 1933. But what choice do we have?

2) In modern liberal countries, it isn't common practice for the Parliament to go into a bloodthirsty frenzy calling for the death of members of the opposition for the crime of daring to organise protests, nor is it a common practice amongst liberal nations to enforce a uniform dress code on women and stone women for adultery on a regular basis. Nor is it common practice that Modern Liberal Nations ban their own national anthem and replace it with a Revolutionary dirge.

I agree, the government is completely rotten. However, Mousavi isn't the opposition. He's at least as bad as Ahmadinejad, seeing as he used to be president in one of the IR's most violent periods. He's just posing now as a "moderate", just like that Gaddafi vermin.
Secondly, the Iranian people have changed quite a bit and probably won't put up with this for much longer. Iran has a better educated populace than other countries in the region, and its mosques are the emptiest in the world.

3) Iran isn't a completely different culture by any stretch of the imagination. For most of it's history it's either ruled other Middle Eastern countries or been ruled by them.

True, but the fact remains that Iranian culture is distinctly not Arabic. Just as Spaniards are not Moroccan and vice versa.

Huge segments of Iran's population are not of Persian descent, but Arab, Kurd or Turkic etc.

Kurds are just another Iranian people. Same as the Âzari, Balooch, Talysh, Gilaki, Mâzandarâni, Lor and other minorities. Yeah I know the Âzari speak a Turkic language, but that doesn't make their ancestors Turkic. They're still mainly Iranian and Caucasian.

It should also be noted that often in non-Arabic speaking countries, the Koran remains in it's original Arabic.

Arabic is resented by many Iranians.

Iran is not barely Muslim but 98% Muslim.

On paper. That's because atheists, agnostics, apostates etc. don't really count in the mind of religious people - nor would they blow their cover by revealing their true alignment.

By this logic I suppose Afghanistan was not part of the Middle East but relapsed into a Middle Eastern country when the Taliban took power?

The layer of civilization on human societies is but thin. We had a similar thing going only a few decades ago...

**Arto** · February 26, 2011, 12:45 PM

I'm curious what WikiLeaks has to say about this. What was the opinion of the average American diplomat about Iran?

**mrmouth** · February 26, 2011, 03:35 PM

Iran did what is always does with respect to aiding us during the initial stages of the invasion of Afghanistan. They alerted us to the people they wanted removed. That aid ended abruptly, and they have since trained and supplied the most hardcore of the Taliban, and have clear ties to AQ.

The bad blood was clearly back in effect by the time we entered Iraq, and they went on to supply everyone who was fighting us, Sunni and Shiite. That included .50 cal rifles and Misagh 1 surface to air missiles that were fired at US US helos numerous times, and downed one in 2007. There was a significant (very successful) US/UK special operations campaign to keep Iran from their goal of supplying fighters with man portable missiles designed to turn Iraq into A-stan, circa 1980's. That has now shifted to A-stan.

They were also responsible for the shaped IEDs (EFPs) which claimed so many coalition lives, as well as innocent civilians. They also trained a lot of the worst of the worst in Iraq, who instigated the ethnic violence that claimed the vast majority of the 100,000+ civilian dead. Including Azhar al Dulaimi who was eventually tracked and killed after he orchestrated the kidnapping and beheading of 4 US soldiers. Trained by the IRG and Hezbollah.

And this history is even more compelling during the Beirut days, leading to Iran cementing itself as a key go-to for all international terrorism. Any place in the world where terrorists feel safe enough to have safe houses, or even store fronts to operate out of, Iran is operating in as well, and there are ties. They are literally the clearing house of information and connections in the world of terrorism.

**Tajir** · February 26, 2011, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by BarnabyJones

Iran did what is always does with respect to aiding us during the initial stages of the invasion of Afghanistan. They alerted us to the people they wanted removed. That aid ended abruptly, and they have since trained and supplied the most hardcore of the Taliban, and have clear ties to AQ.

Your entire post goes down in history as the most uneducated opinion piece ever written, but this part alone set the stage for the rest. Its too long to educate you on the rest.

The Taliban may be a foreign policy headache for the US, but they're a national security threat for the Iranians. I don't even think the Taliban would accept a penny from Iran.

You have to be joking if you actually conjured up that conspiracy.

**Caelifer_1991** · February 26, 2011, 03:45 PM

I reckon the only reason we* invaded Afghanistan and Iraq in the first place was to allow us to extend our own influence upon the Middle East more than we could anyway, at the expense of otherwise expanding Iranian influence, having 2 friendly states (assuming both are assumed successes upon the end of the wars located in such countries, and after a few years of normalisation) on either side of Iran, a fleet near Iran's territorial waters based in Bahrain and military bases to the north, as well as an army that is experienced in fighting in conditions that are similar to Iran gives an aweful lot of leverage.

*the West, albeit lead by the US in these cases

**mattgoby** · February 26, 2011, 05:48 PM

Israel and the US have huge weapon deals with each other spefically weapons development contracts, they would never go to war, in fact i would say a war between the US and Iran is incredibley likely