[Discussion] Voting System

[The Hedge Knight]

I have wondered this for a while but never dared post it. But of late i have become so infuriated by the conservative nature of the curia i have decided that its time to at least discuss this.

Does any one else find it ridiculous that a 66% majority is required to pass a vote? Meaning that one requires twice the number of yes votes as no votes? If you ask me this is really holding back the curia. I cannot think of any other governmental system where the vote is not either rigged or 50%.

Im not proposing we roll it back to 50% but a number like 55% or 58% would be infinitelly preferable to the system we have no which seems to crush so easily votes which have a clear supporting majority.

I would be willing to bet any vote to change this though would fail but have a 60% majority .

[Squid]

Do a search this has been proposed many times and failed equally as many, most of them miserably. The consensus is that it should be difficult to make changes and not easy. If the proposal does not have the support of 2/3rd of citizens then it shouldn't be implemented anyway, and if it was implemented it would just be reversed the next month, etc, etc. Incidentally the usual number that people usually try to pass is 60%, which given the average number of voters in an average poll means we're changing the number of votes to pass by 1-3 votes, not even worth mentioning.

[shokh]

I rather would raise it to 70%-80% for citizen applications.
If really 4 of 10 saying that this member don´t deserved this rank for example for his "not so good" attitude i don´t think he should get this rank.

[Jom]

I rather would raise it to 70%-80% for citizen applications.
If really 4 of 10 saying that this member don´t deserved this rank for example for his "not so good" attitude i don´t think he should get this rank.

There are 12 members of the CdeC, and decisions aren't taken on attitude alone; people on the CdeC have rather different ideas about what does or does not constitute a contribution worthy of citizenship.

[The Hedge Knight]

There are 12 members of the CdeC, and decisions aren't taken on attitude alone; people on the CdeC have rather different ideas about what does or does not constitute a contribution worthy of citizenship.

Yeah reading it gives me the impression most of you dont have a clue on some areas.

[Jom]

Yeah reading it gives me the impression most of you dont have a clue on some areas.

Which would be why there are 12 of us: our strengths complement the other's weaknesses.

[shokh]

There are 12 members of the CdeC, and decisions aren't taken on attitude alone; people on the CdeC have rather different ideas about what does or does not constitute a contribution worthy of citizenship.

Well thanks for your words. I think contributions are important but the cant be that great to compensate an real lack of manner/character. Not here, not in any part of life.
When this part is okay, then i would look on the stuff from this application, and not in another direction.
And if this will be not the same for the citizen rank....well....then i don´t wanna wear such an badge.
Good contributions are not all what should represent TWC.

Edit:

I have read modding threads by husserlTW the .esf editor and all (tools by TAW etc) and it's not complicated in modding ETW if one has those tools.

Sorry here i must disagree.
You can´t score the difficulty level with reading this threads.
Modding descr_strat is an child´s play against ESF modding.
First of all you need way much longer to do the changes, and i mean that the are causing not an conflict. Also you have to keep in mind that working with hybrid startpos will copy parts of your db coding in your campaign file. Is there any failure done your esf file is corrupt and you can start again from an previous version. You have to do at every bigger step at least 25 turns to discover savegame bugs.

This is why i´m wondering if i read "good modding skills" when someone change an unitsize for example or an faction capitol. The beast is living way deeper in modding this engine, as i have experience with modding all previous TW games i may say we cannot compare this. This mean not that i would say RTW/MTW modders are less qualified or should be an offense against anyone. I´m at least also not an modding pro, still learning by doing.

The meaning of all is that artifex applications form ETW/NTW/S2 modders needs in future more critical judgement.

[Ishan]

Sorry here i must disagree.

I was only pointing out the fact that ETW\NTW modding is not a scientist job in comparison to it's predecessors unlike some ETW\NTW guys claim it is, i din't said that it was a child's play in comparison either.

[The Hedge Knight]

You have a couple of glaring issues in my mind. Particularly with all those etw modders applying.

[Legio]

CdeC Roster:
Russian Roulette, Capt. Fozdike, Hesus de Bodemloze, Ishan, Jom, Justinian, Legio, Leonidas the Lion, Nanny de Bodemloze, Pontifex, Viking Prince, y2day

CdeC who have done RTW modding: Legio, y2day, Hesus de Bodemloze
CdeC who have done M2TW modding: y2day, Ishan, Legio (but nothing past reskins)
CdeC who have done ETW/NTW modding: Nanny de Bodemloze, Legio (albeit crap crap crap crap CRAP modding)

Out of these twelve members we have 5 modders or people who have dabbled in modding and have some tiny clue about what needs to be done. Out of these modders we have 3 in RTW, 3 in M2, and 2 in ETW/NTW. A 3:3:2 ratio amongst our modders is not bad. And while I put myself in all three categories please note that I'm not particularly brilliant in any of them. You know, Josst, as you've had to help me out of many a corner in my sojourn into NTW skinning.

Now, with transparency we now have the opportunity for all interested parties to peek in and sometimes offer their input: be it in the commentary thread or a private message to the Curator with any relevant concerns (keep in mind that these concerns may not be relevant, such as in the case of an angry member not wanting member X to pass his vote and trying to defame him). However, we do have something which is allowed and not generally frowned upon in the CdeC process. If a member of the CdeC is confused about something they are allowed to contact the patron and/or the prospective client. All with the Curator's blessing, of course - otherwise it would reek of nepotism to some. In this private message can be anything ranging from a modding query to a request for further elucidation on a part of the application. This has not been used in a while, but it is still there. Also keep in mind that we have many interested modders who frequently chip in regarding various Curial affairs (Mitch and MasterBigAB, for example).

If there was to be such a glaring mistake on behalf of the CdeC as, say, failing an applicant based on nothing else than the fact that they could not comprehend the depths of his ETW/NTW modding (because after all, this is absolutely not an issue regarding a Rome or M2 modderon a CdeC that is clearly biased towards the earlier games), then I really think that someone would simply call them out. Perhaps it would be Mitch. Perhaps it would be you. Perhaps it would be the mighty and infallible Jom. But this has not been the case. Why is that?

Simply because one does not have to be a great modder to appreciate a modder's work. If the opposite were true then only modders would play mods and the rest of the unwashed masses would be stuck with suicide generals and incendiary pigs. I will not argue the fact that most of the CdeC will go crazy if forced to create their own .PAK file. I will not argue the fact that others would balk at something so simple as changing the starting settlements a faction owns in Rome: Total War. I will, however, argue the opinion that just because one does not know how to mod (or is not exceptionally good at it, in many cases) then one is completely unsuited to judge any sort of modding applications whatsoever.

If said opinion were the case then one would have excellent modders failing left and right. Now, is that the case? Have there even been any recent cases where an otherwise excellent (or even run of the mill) modder has even been in danger of failing his artifex application because of ignorance, negligence, and general stupidity on the part of the CdeC?

If so, please link them and we will discuss the case(s) point by point.

If no, then that would point to the logical conclusion that despite the fact that the CdeC may not have as many ETW and NTW modders as one would like, it is still managing to dispense fair and equal judgment on members, be it in a citizenship application or a disciplinary action. Now, if the 'no' is true, then we have that glaring issue out of the way.

In order to facilitate a more efficient and generally likeable Consilium de Civitate, I would request that any issues regarding how well it is run or how fallacious its opinions are be made known so that said body may rectify them.

[The Hedge Knight]

CdeC who have done ETW/NTW modding: Nanny de Bodemloze, Legio (albeit crap crap crap crap CRAP modding)

Legio changed a texture.

.PAK

Its .pack by the way.
Nanny made a [many many many] video.

I mean seriously? Im not saying you cant appreciate it. I am saying you might not know very well what constitues what with these games.

Anyway this was not about the cdec it was about the curia.

[Ishan]

You have a couple of glaring issues in my mind. Particularly with all those etw modders applying.

Nanny made a [many many many] video.

I am saying you might not know very well what constitues what with these games.

How so? If a cdec member who is a modder haven't modded the game that doesn't means that he can't judge an Artifex application from ETW section.
I have read modding threads by husserlTW the .esf editor and all (tools by TAW etc) and it's not complicated in modding ETW if one has those tools.

About Nanny it's not about what CdeC member has done in modding terms it's about what he knows. Nanny comes those sections and is a Dweller of ETW\NTW sections, he knows what goes inside there. Like in recent application of shokh he gave a heads up on what the guy is all about after that it was not hard to judge the guy's application and he passed with 12 votes.

[T.C.]

It's my opinion that there should be a system of references for Artifex applications, or at least some CdeC advisers that are actively engaged in modding different games (Mostly an issues for the latest 3 games).
Anyway, on topic. As said, if you lower the amount of votes required you'll just get more stuff passed that people don't really want. It'll soon turn into a yo-yo game. One month something is in, the next it's out, the next it's in etc etc.

[Legio]

Legio changed a texture. Its .pack by the way.
Nanny made a [many many many] video.
I mean seriously? Im not saying you cant appreciate it. I am saying you might not know very well what constitues what with these games.
Anyway this was not about the cdec it was about the curia.

Is changing a texture not modding now? Also keep in mind that I had a hefty disclaimer about my own paltry modding skill in the post. Sorry about PAK vs. .pack, I'm still stuck in Rome where they are all 'PAK' files.

With regards to the rest of my post, I was responding to some of the earlier posts in the thread regarding the CdeC's unsuitability to judge ETW and NTW applicants. I apologize if I was unclear in that respect.

The posts I was responding to

Yeah reading it gives me the impression most of you dont have a clue on some areas. You have a couple of glaring issues in my mind. Particularly with all those etw modders applying.

It's my opinion that there should be a system of references for Artifex applications, or at least some CdeC advisers that are actively engaged in modding different games (Mostly an issues for the latest 3 games).

That's a good idea and it's been proposed relatively recently. I really wanted this bill to pass because it seems like a solution to the disagreement we have here. If we had one of our resident modding experts as an intern or CdeC counselor then we wouldn't be having this discussion, I warrant. I'd be all for proposing that again, really. Shall you or shall I?

[T.C.]

Is changing a texture not modding now? Also keep in mind that I had a hefty disclaimer about my own paltry modding skill in the post. Sorry about PAK vs. .pack, I'm still stuck in Rome where they are all 'PAK' files.

With regards to the rest of my post, I was responding to some of the earlier posts in the thread regarding the CdeC's unsuitability to judge ETW and NTW applicants. I apologize if I was unclear in that respect.

The posts I was responding to

That's a good idea and it's been proposed relatively recently. I really wanted this bill to pass because it seems like a solution to the disagreement we have here. If we had one of our resident modding experts as an intern or CdeC counselor then we wouldn't be having this discussion, I warrant. I'd be all for proposing that again, really. Shall you or shall I?

Feel free, you're more likely to cover all ends than I would

[Antwerpen]

I agree with Squid and T.C.

The Curial votes are not just polls to find out who wants a decision or an amendment to pass, and who doesn't. These votes express the opinion of the Curia in whole, as a single legislative body. That is also one of the reasons the polls are anonymous: we don't care whether it is an internet-famous modder or a newest addition to the Curia - votes are equal and the poll results sum up the general Curial state on the issue.

Cheers.

[Legio]

Oh, all I intend to do is copy and paste AL's original amendment really. Started it here for all who are interested.

[The Hedge Knight]

Oh, all I intend to do is copy and paste AL's original amendment really. Started it here for all who are interested.

I would very much support this.

How so? If a cdec member who is a modder haven't modded the game that doesn't means that he can't judge an Artifex application from ETW section.
I have read modding threads by husserlTW the .esf editor and all (tools by TAW etc) and it's not complicated in modding ETW if one has those tools.

It not complex changing a region but doing anything else is. A nightmare of binary with no tags. Also if you consider it that simple i advise you to consider current applications carefully.

About Nanny it's not about what CdeC member has done in modding terms it's about what he knows. Nanny comes those sections and is a Dweller of ETW\NTW sections, he knows what goes inside there. Like in recent application of shokh he gave a heads up on what the guy is all about after that it was not hard to judge the guy's application and he passed with 12 votes.

Not because he can mod. Because he knew him well personally.

My own opinion and that of several other modders is that it is ridiculous to be missing any ntw/etw modders on a panel that judges them so regularly.

[Ishan]

Also if you consider it that simple i advise you to consider current applications carefully.

Duly noted.

Not because he can mod. Because he knew him well personally.

So you're saying that if he didn't knew him personally Nanny being a dweller of that section wouldn't know whether he is citizen worthy or not?

My own opinion and that of several other modders is that it is ridiculous to be missing any ntw/etw modders on a panel that judges them so regularly.

If current judgement given by CdeC Councillors is ridiculous you can then PM the ETW modders like husserlTW etc so that they stand in the next election for CdeC and help resolve the ridiculousness.

[The Hedge Knight]

Duly noted.

So you saying that if he didn't knew him personally Nanny being a dweller of that section wouldn't know whether he is citizen worthy or not?

If current judgement given by CdeC Councillors is ridiculous you can then PM the ETW modders like husserlTW etc so that they stand in the next election for CdeC and help resolve the ridiculousness.

• Good
• I think his opinion would still be valid but too a lesser extent (no offense meant here)
• Would love to see this. Got someone in mind i think should run.