Possible suggestions for legionary eagle system

**coit105** · February 24, 2011, 05:53 PM

Would just like to brainstorm a few things that just occurred to me and would be relevant from a realism point of view; I don't know how accurate it is that other factions had legionary eagles but if it turns out they did then bravo, however, more to the point, a lost legionary eagle doesn't seem to carry the same relevance that it would have done historically. I mean part of the reason why Pompey was asked to be sole consul in like 52 B.C., which was important in the lead up to the Civil war between him and Caesar, was because the Romans, in Rome, went awry after Crassus' disastrous defeat at Carrhae and the loss of his legionary eagle, which became the subject of many subsequent wars with the Parthians until they got it back. There was also supposedly a bunch of Gauls that had links to Pompey that stole one of Caesars eagles and when Caesar recovered it and discovered this, it was the beginning of the decent of diplomacy between the two which eventually led to the civil war in 49 B.C. For this reason I think public order in settlements, particularly Rome, should be disturbed by lost legionary eagles and likewise regained ones/stolen ones when playing with another faction should create boosts and their should be some sort of new window indicating when one is recovered.

I think the amount of time that one goes missing for should affect the impact it has also. So for instance once one is lost public order should decrease over a period of say 10 turns unless it's recovered then begin to slowly increase again for say 5 turns back to normal and one that is recovered after this period should have a large effect on public order. Another thing, for other factions than Rome, should be the option to melt down a stolen legionary eagle if the factions finances fall below, or close to, zero. On one last note the legionary units, post Marian reforms (which as I've mentioned need to be moved to 107 B.C.), carrying the eagle should be, as history tells us, twice the size of the average legionary unit and, perhaps for balancing purposes but probably still fairly historically accurate, should be more expensive and have more discipline.

Thoughts on the possibility of this happening in 7.0, general feedback about the ideas and the accuracy/inaccuracy of my intel would be much appreciated, at which point I open it up to the floor. =D

**Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze** · February 25, 2011, 02:57 AM

(which as I've mentioned need to be moved to 107 B.C.)

VII starts in 280 BC with a four-turns-per-year script. This means you'll need to play 692 turns before you can get the Marian Reforms. This is awfully boring and by that time some faction has probably steamrolled half the map anyway. Thus, the reforms in VII occur when a Roman player has reached the size of the Republic at the time of the Reforms. This won't be in 240 BC, and not in 200 either. I expect it to be around ~170-150 BC for the player who takes his time.

You can of course play historically, but that's a bit slow to do

**coit105** · February 25, 2011, 03:41 AM

Fair point. Anything to offer on the subject of the legionary eagles?

**Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze** · February 25, 2011, 04:12 AM

Its possible, for as far as I know.

**Remlap** · February 25, 2011, 07:20 AM

Interesting idea mate, idk how possible it will be for us since we don't use the eagles as a primary focus in Roma's armies.

**coit105** · February 25, 2011, 08:16 AM

Well I mean that's my problem the vanilla doesn't mention the loss of legionary eagles at all and the mod does but doesn't go any further than to say 'it's been moved to such and such', however if you're a faction who's on the receiving end of an eagle it doesn't seem to make the slightest bit of difference and isn't mentioned at all. I think you either need to go full out with it or not at all it's not really an idea where you can sit on the fence.

Furthermore as you're entitled Rome: total realism and, for the aforementioned reasons, it would be more realistic to feature it I suggest you go the whole hog with it. Plus it'd mean that newcomers, from vanilla RTW, would be more open to this mod because the absence of the senate is replaced by a more challenging goal system and also, if you could even go so far as to feature it in diplomacy, it gives you a reason to go to war with a non-Roman faction if you've made peace and they've not returned your eagle which puts you in a very 'Roman senator' mindset adding to the realism further and actually behaves like a really awesome history lesson in showing people how the politics of pre-Augustan Rome worked. You'd be providing a public service (unless of course we end up with an entire generation with a powerfully politically driven way of thinking god forbid [he said with just a hint of irony]).

In all seriousness, in your position, I'd seriously consider it because it gives more depth to the game once the Marian reforms kick in which, as it's been brought to my attention here, will happen once you've basically plowed the fields of the known world and got a strong enough foothold that you realise nearly nothing can stop you and you will be starting to consider putting Rome back on the shelf for good. I'd like to add a pretty please because I'm nice and would be unbelievably grateful. =D

**Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze** · February 25, 2011, 09:31 AM

In all seriousness, in your position, I'd seriously consider it because it gives more depth to the game once the Marian reforms kick in which, as it's been brought to my attention here, will happen once you've basically plowed the fields of the known world and got a strong enough foothold that you realise nearly nothing can stop you and you will be starting to consider putting Rome back on the shelf for good.

Since you've basically wiped out 6/10 of the world by the time of the Marian Reforms, it can be seen as a reward for your patience already. The Marian reforms are there to make the Roman late game fun

**coit105** · February 25, 2011, 11:22 PM

Would not a legionary eagle system further add to that? I mean if you think about it you could see it basically as a 'new and more realistic replacement' to the senate missions of vanilla. I've already cited my main arguments and I could quickly skim through one more wikipedia article, but instead I think I'll pander your attention more to the whole; it's an incomplete part of what could be a very awesome, and very realistic gameplay feature. Furthermore, to rebuke your argument slightly further, would you not agree that once you've retired/dissolved off your old legionary's that work by the acer triplex formation and have replaced them with the slightly more powerful and simpler to set up infantry, that the post Marian legionaries are, the race to conquering the known world becomes ever so slightly one sided and monotonous and giving the player something to fight for, or laden a trap to an unsuspecting rival faction, would keep the fatigue down to a minimum?

Also I have to ask, is the rebel faction for Rome in RTR an actual campaign faction, or simply so the player can set up a civil war style scenario in custom battles?

**Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze** · February 26, 2011, 01:00 AM

I'm not against you here at all. That post was completely unnecessary; I already agreed with you on the eagle part and I was just pointing out the intention of the Marian Reforms in VII

**coit105** · February 26, 2011, 05:23 AM

Ah cool. Sorry. Waking up at 3 something am and not getting back to sleep makes me overly defensive. EAGLES! =D
To repeat a question that was left unanswered, here at least, is the rebel faction for Rome in RTR an actual campaign faction, or simply so the player can set up a civil war style scenario in custom battles?