Is multiculturalism a failure?

[Guderian]

Edit - split out from the 'Saudi ambassador recalled from Denmark' thread - Tac


Ummon and others don't turn this into an anti multiculturalism thread. It is absolute rubbish not to mention intellectually dishonest to suggest that multiculturalism is a failure just because of ONE group of immigrants.

There are many benefits that can be gained from multiculturalism other than just food and beautiful women. The most obvious ones are economic benefits such as growth, skilled labour and trade. There are also benefits to the community such as filling specialist roles that cannot be filled locally(i.e In Australia the need for rural doctors is being filled by immigrants), cultural diversity and understanding and lastly there are technological and academic benefits from having a much larger pool of knowledge to draw from and more perspectives.

[Ummon]

Ummon and others don't turn this into an anti multiculturalism thread. It is absolute rubbish not to mention intellectually dishonest to suggest that multiculturalism is a failure just because of ONE group of immigrants.

Multiculturalism is a failure separately from one or any amount of groups of immigrants. It is absolutely not necessary to renounce to one's culture, while allowing complete freedom of movement to immigrants. Infact, there is but one human culture in the world, with various local ramifications, so multiculturalism cannot exist in any case. It is our extreme lack of intelligence which leads us to see differences where infact none exists, and not to see them, when they are in place.

There are many benefits that can be gained from multiculturalism other than just food and beautiful women. The most obvious ones are economic benefits such as growth, skilled labour and trade. There are also benefits to the community such as filling specialist roles that cannot be filled locally(i.e In Australia the need for rural doctors is being filled by immigrants), cultural diversity and understanding and lastly there are technological and academic benefits from having a much larger pool of knowledge to draw from and more perspectives.

These are not the benefits of multiculturalism, but those of a free society.

[Guderian]

Multiculturalism is a failure separately from one or any amount of groups of immigrants. It is absolutely not necessary to renounce to one's culture, while allowing complete freedom of movement to immigrants. Infact, there is but one human culture in the world, with various local ramifications, so multiculturalism cannot exist in any case. It is our extreme lack of intelligence which leads us to see differences where infact none exists, and not to see them, when they are in place.

Multiculturalism is not about renouncing one's cultures it is about embracing all cultures without predijuice. Multiculturalism as defined by the Australian Immigration office:

Australian multiculturalism means that as a nation we recognise, accept,
respect and celebrate our cultural diversity. It is about and for all Australians
and embraces the heritage of Indigenous Australians, early European
settlement, our Australian-grown customs and those of the diverse range of
migrants now coming to this country.
Multiculturalism is inclusive and therefore a unifying force in our developing
nationhood and evolving identity. Multicultural Australia emphasises the
things that unite us as a people – our common membership of the
Australian community, our desire for social harmony, and the benefits of our
diversity for all of us.
We have fashioned a multicultural nation by bringing together our
respective traditions and values for the common purpose of working
towards a common future. In Australia, we accept and respect the right of
all Australians to express and share their individual cultural heritage within
an overriding commitment to Australia and the basic structures and values
of Australian society. These are the Constitution, Parliamentary democracy,
freedom of speech and religion, English as the national language, the rule of
law, tolerance, and equality including equality of the sexes.

Multiculturalism is about the "one human culture" as you say. Somewhere along the line multiculturalism has been manipulated to mean renoucing one's culture.

These are not the benefits of multiculturalism, but those of a free society.

No these are the benefits of both a free society and multiculturalism aka as accpeting other cultures and immigration.

[Darth Wong]

Multiculturalism is fine as long as it doesn't morph into multilegalism. One set of laws for everyone, but everyone gets to have whatever culture they want. The desire to apply one uniform culture across an entire country's people is an example of some of the worst aspects of human nature.

[Erik]

Multiculturalism is fine as long as it doesn't morph into multilegalism. One set of laws for everyone, but everyone gets to have whatever culture they want.

This reminds me of this rastafari who honestly beleived it was OK for him to smuggle drugs into my country because of his religion.
The court hearing was so funny, he must have been smoking.

[Patton85]

Multiculturalism is failure. In America it has led to bilingual education where noone knows either language well(Spanish or English). In France you have the Muslim riots, which have also occured in other places in Europe. Integration/assimilation is a better policy, and it worked well in America when it was used.

[Darth Wong]

Multiculturalism is failure. In America it has led to bilingual education where noone knows either language well(Spanish or English). In France you have the Muslim riots, which have also occured in other places in Europe. Integration/assimilation is a better policy, and it worked well in America when it was used.

Yeah right, because there are no cultural variations in America. The Jewish quarter of NYC has the same culture as rural Alabama, which in turn has the same culture as urban Chicago, which in turn has the same culture as San Francisco ... oh wait a minute, that's totally false. Put aside the myths; America is highly multicultural.

[LSJ]

People don't like the idea or sound of assimilation, even if it means people could possibly get along better. When they hear "assimilation" they feel as though you are spitting on their culture and saying that yours is superior, which I am sure would not be true.
Multiculturalism gives a city diversity in foods, celebration, religion and identity. Cities like Toronto would not be the same at all without things like the cultural food festivals, celebrations, the two New Years, the two Christmases (non-orthodox is still dominant though), and the famous gay pride parade. Then theres the China towns, Little Italy, and such where you find things that no one else but the new immigrants would be looking for, because people don't sell it in Canada, only Asia.
Being accepting of multiculturalism is much better for the immigrants, even if not for a few of us.

I think that multiculturalism is a good idea, but it will never work completely. Being around minorities means that prejudice can take form of toward a target now, rather than a far away country. There is a minority of prejudice people, though... Hopefully.
It works better than assimilation, but neither of the two work perfectly. Multiculturalism has flaws, but I don't think it has failed.

Besides, when everyone is the same culture, prejudice goes toward things like colour. Like in the early 1900s/late 1800's. The Africans and Americans had the same culture due to assimilation, the same religion, but then Africans were the target of terrible racist acts. Also, after assimilation, the KKK was born...
I guess when you take away the thing someone doesn't like, they bring another dislike or hate to the table.

It may be because of multiculturalism that people protect human rights, because the other minorities are accepted better, and we want to protect them, rather than make them "one of us".

[Kanaric]

Multiculturalism is failure. In America it has led to bilingual education where noone knows either language well(Spanish or English). In France you have the Muslim riots, which have also occured in other places in Europe. Integration/assimilation is a better policy, and it worked well in America when it was used.

Actually in the US it works. Most of the immigrant chilren in my schools had NO trouble what so ever in english.

Also in the Us we havn't had race riots in YEARS.

So yes, multiculturalism works, unless of course you purposely want to find that it DOESNT work because your xenophobic.

What is "classical multiculturalism"?

Something that is made up.

I guess its when the Turks kill the armenians or when the spanish inquisition murdered jews and muslims. That is "classical multiculturalism" to me.

[Patton85]

In a major city like Philadelphia it doesn't work. And don't call me xenophobic, I have many non-white friends. Typical argument from someone who knows not what he speaks. Resorting to personal attacks and name calling instead of the facts. Minorities tend to do worse in school, much of that has to do with a poorer understanding of the language. The SAT is in English, and College's expect you to know English well. Merely being able to speak slanglish doesn't suffice. And this cannot be linked to lack of funding because major cities spend more dollars per head than most of the country and yet they have the worst school districts. It is poor policy derived from blind multiculturalism. It isn't working, U.S. education has gotten worse and worse with all the left-wing theories that have been implemented. Your supposed to become an American, not a hyphenated American. Classical multiculturalism is multiculturalism as propagated at the beginning of its implementation. It basically means that anyone can come to the West and not necessarily become Western. Look at the "no-go zones" in Europe where radical clerics are propagating Radical Islam and denouncing European culture. That is multiculturalism for you.

[repman]

Yes the US is multicultural, but in the US the patriotism (proud, economic self achievement,...) is the glue which keeps the cultures together. You talk maybe in many languages but you feel american. In Europe its not the same. I don't think many young turkish people in Germany are proud to be german. Same for France.

[Darth Wong]

The big problem with Europe is that they still associate nationhood with ethnicity. In order to be German, you must be ethnic German as far as many Germans are concerned. Everyone else is considered an "immigrant" even if they were born in the country.

In America and Canada, on the other hand, we think of national citizenship in terms of where you were born.

[Patton85]

Assimilation does not mean that you give up all of your culture and act like a WASP. It means you learn the language, and speak it in public and buy into the American system. Not that you renounce your heritage; otherwise, we wouldn't have Indian restaurants, Chinese restaurants, Latin music, rap music, etc. But obviously classical multiculturalism doesn't work and needs reworking.

[Darth Wong]

Assimilation does not mean that you give up all of your culture and act like a WASP. It means you learn the language, and speak it in public and buy into the American system. Not that you renounce your heritage; otherwise, we wouldn't have Indian restaurants, Chinese restaurants, Latin music, rap music, etc. But obviously classical multiculturalism doesn't work and needs reworking.

I'm all for limiting official communications and public education to English; that's a simple expedient for a smooth-functioning society. Although I'm curious why you think rap music is an example of multiculturalism; wasn't rap music invented and popularized in America?

[Erik]

But obviously classical multiculturalism doesn't work and needs reworking.

What is "classical multiculturalism"?

[Ummon]

The big problem with Europe is that they still associate nationhood with ethnicity. In order to be German, you must be ethnic German as far as many Germans are concerned. Everyone else is considered an "immigrant" even if they were born in the country.

In America and Canada, on the other hand, we think of national citizenship in terms of where you were born.

I associate nationhood with shared principles. This excludes muslims from any democratic nation, as of now.

[Radier]

It's a big failure if you don't handle it right. I have family in Malmö, Sweden where up to 50% are immegrants. They say that in some parts of the city, you shall not walk. It is the non-european parts... It is no coincident that Malmö is one of the poorest cities in Sweden and also the one with most criminals, so financial benefits? I don't think so.

I have a friend in Malmö who has immegrated to Sweden for some years ago and he agrees that massive immegration is just the wet dream of leftists. Sure we benefit in some ways, but in general it is a failure. Non-europeans do not assimilate good if they are to many in one place. It is certainly not swedish gangs that disbehave on the street. They are not swedes and they don't want to be either. I have had enough with this political correct multiculturalism...

[God-Emperor of Mankind]

They say that in some parts of the city, you shall not walk. It is the non-european parts...

You do realise it is like that in pretty much all major cities in Sweden right ??
And you do realise that these areas are also the most poorest parts too right ??
When these people move out of those poor areas you will see that they will start blend in with society.
You can compare a iranian from Rosengård with a iranian from the area that I live.
The difference is quite amazing.

the one with most criminals,

That is not true.
We were a couple of years ago but we have cleaned up and is no longer bad.
Landskrona is alot worse and is the most dangerous city in Sweden.

[Radier]

You do realise it is like that in pretty much all major cities in Sweden right ??
And you do realise that these areas are also the most poorest parts too right ??
When these people move out of those poor areas you will see that they will start blend in with society.
You can compare a iranian from Rosengård with a iranian from the area that I live.
The difference is quite amazing.


That is not true.
We were a couple of years ago but we have cleaned up and is no longer bad.
Landskrona is alot worse and is the most dangerous city in Sweden.

Of course I know these areas are poor. I just don't think multiculturalism work in Sweden with high criminalityrates from immegrants.
Sweden would be a better place without Rosengård, Ronna, Rinkeby and so on... My non-european friends are fully assimilated and they are doing just fine,
so that's what I think we shall do with immegrants. Trash the multiculturalism and make them swedes.

[Ummon]

I don't know, multiculturalism is all but classical. Though multiculturalism could be defined as the theorization of a society without culture, where voluntary slaves of all races and religions are perused by the economical powers and kept into a state of ignorance which forbids them to see their state of submission. :wink: