Worgs suck

[Yinafra]

I played as misty mountain orcs and in a battle between me and the silvan elves. Where I had over 1000 troops more then them lost an entire unit of worg riders. I Charged them down hill into a unit of archers and lost 75% of them. I made them retreat and they were shot down by the archers who lost less then half of there soldiers. I thought worgs were heavy cavalry capable of massacring archers? Aren't they?

[Soul Reapir]

I too have yet to really use Wargs effectively. Only as a calvary killer do they seem effective. I beleive they should get a MASSIVE boost in melee combat against ANY unit. There actual charge should be next to nothing. Basicly they should be really fast infantry units. I mean a giant wolf can take on even the most skilled warrior in close combat. Not in this mod.

[Mikail Mengsk]

Wargs are not heavy cavalry, and silvan archers are pretty good in melee too. Which archers, anyway?

[Lemoniser]

and i doubt wargs had full strength going into it against such an archer heavy faction as elves. also maybe they laid stakes and had support which is why they did so terribly?

[Abriael]

Worgs are NOT heavy cavalry. In the movies you can see them jumping on top of people, and those people simply stand up a bit shaken after killing worg and raider. They're light-weight creatures and their impact power and momentum is nowhere near that of a charging warhorse. They're good at what they should be good, meaning as harrassers and to ride down fleeing enemies.

[Scorpius Centaurus]

Worgs are NOT heavy cavalry. In the movies you can see them jumping on top of people, and those people simply stand up a bit shaken after killing worg and raider. They're light-weight creatures and their impact power and momentum is nowhere near that of a charging warhorse. They're good at what they should be good, meaning as harrassers and to ride down fleeing enemies.

I don't think so... in the movie they looked pretty heavy to me! They are certainly not "light-weight". And what people did you see who after being jumped on by a warg "simply stand up a bit shaken after killing worg and raider"? The only person I saw was Gimli and he as a dwarf is incredibly strong but still had trouble lifting one of them off him, let alone two of them.

[Abriael]

I don't think so... in the movie they looked pretty heavy to me! They are certainly not "light-weight". And what people did you see who after being jumped on by a warg "simply stand up a bit shaken after killing worg and raider"? The only person I saw was Gimli and he as a dwarf is incredibly strong but still had trouble lifting one of them off him, let alone two of them.

They didn't nearly look as heavy as a horse. You simply don't lift a warhorse off yourself. Compared to the tight (and much bigger) mass of muscles that's a warhorse, they're most definitely light-weight.

Also, a heavy warhorse charge is so effective because it counts the weight of the horse, of the rider AND any piece of heavy armor they wear and adds it to the momentum. Worgs and Worg riders are basically unarmored, making their weight, and momentum, pretty much nothing compared to a heavy warhorse with armor and an armored rider.
Finally, worgs jump on their target instead of charging straight into it, being little more than wild beasts, partially breaking the linear momentum of the charge, and making any kind of weaponry the rider uses completely useless during the impact itself.
That's one of the reasons why the use of semi-domsticated beasts as war mounts is, pretty much, just a fantasy thing, quite unrealistic and with little application in reality.

[Mikail Mengsk]

They didn't nearly look as heavy as a horse. You simply don't lift a warhorse off yourself. Compared to the tight (and much bigger) mass of muscles that's a warhorse, they're most definitely light-weight.

Also, a heavy warhorse charge is so effective because it counts the weight of the horse, of the rider AND any piece of heavy armor they wear and adds it to the momentum. Worgs and Worg riders are basically unarmored, making their weight, and momentum, pretty much nothing compared to a heavy warhorse with armor and an armored rider.
Finally, worgs jump on their target instead of charging straight into it, being little more than wild beasts, partially breaking the linear momentum of the charge, and making any kind of weaponry the rider uses completely useless during the impact itself.
That's one of the reasons why the use of semi-domsticated beasts as war mounts is, pretty much, just a fantasy thing, quite unrealistic and with little application in reality.

Good analysis. Also, goblin riders don't have heavy lances, needed to focus the mass of the horse+rider in a very tiny point maximising the effect.

Not always. Some times it can actually hurt you more as you're lowering your defence when continuing through. If it is a full unit, then you will take a lot of hits doing this especially if they have deep ranks or in horde/loose formation. And never do it if they have bonus to fight cavalry, where charge-withdraw-charge actually still work. If they have shallow ranks or are few in numbers this is a viable tactic.

I agree: sometimes it could be useful, but usually is better to withdraw.

[ArmyCharger]

They didn't nearly look as heavy as a horse. You simply don't lift a warhorse off yourself. Compared to the tight (and much bigger) mass of muscles that's a warhorse, they're most definitely light-weight.

Also, a heavy warhorse charge is so effective because it counts the weight of the horse, of the rider AND any piece of heavy armor they wear and adds it to the momentum. Worgs and Worg riders are basically unarmored, making their weight, and momentum, pretty much nothing compared to a heavy warhorse with armor and an armored rider.
Finally, worgs jump on their target instead of charging straight into it, being little more than wild beasts, partially breaking the linear momentum of the charge, and making any kind of weaponry the rider uses completely useless during the impact itself.
That's one of the reasons why the use of semi-domsticated beasts as war mounts is, pretty much, just a fantasy thing, quite unrealistic and with little application in reality.

Heavy armor weighs about 20 kilos max. this weight is distributed over the body, and the armor made to be as flexible as possible so it won't hinder the fighter in combat. wearing heavy armor is a lot like gaining 20 kilos weight. Actually, the armor will probably be better distributed over your body than the weight.

20 kilos is not that much compared to the average weight of a warrior and his warhorse. It hardly makes a real difference actually.

When we compare the impact of a warg charge to an impact of a horse charge, we first need to know weither we are talking about movie wargs or book wargs. Book wargs are big wolves, which are sometimes used as mounts by goblins. certainly smaller than horses. Movie wargs on the other hand are huge hyina-bear-whatever-beasts. we saw a warhorse- vs wargcharge in the movies, and the horses didn't quite trample the wargs. they themselves were struck down by the wargs!
Gimli lifting a warg isn't really a reference. Look at the armor the guy was wearing while he RAN all the way trough Rohan! John Rhys-Davies said he could only run for a few minutes in that armor.

since we have the movie wargs in game, I suppose we'll have to compare them to horses. when horses and wargs charge eachother, the wargs charge wins. however, when they charge infantry, i'd go for the horses, since the wargriders don't have lances and can hardly charge as one unit, since their wargs aren't trained enough. So I agree on your thirth point.

However, these beasts should definatly be better at melee-combat. I mean, look at them! they're ing huge! Look at their jaws! look at their claws!

The use of semi-domesticated beasts in war is quite normal in Tolkiens world or the movies. Look at trolls. Look at mumakil. Training an elephant is quite hard, what about these babies.

[Abriael]

Heavy armor weighs about 20 kilos max. this weight is distributed over the body, and the armor made to be as flexible as possible so it won't hinder the fighter in combat. wearing heavy armor is a lot like gaining 20 kilos weight. Actually, the armor will probably be better distributed over your body than the weight.

20 kilos is not that much compared to the average weight of a warrior and his warhorse. It hardly makes a real difference actually.

Love when people start grasping at straws.

The weight includes that of the armor on the horse. It does make quite a difference. Just for the record, it being distributed over the body doesn't make any difference to the momentum of the horse+knight+equipment charge.

Wearing 20 kilos of armor, for the phyisics of the power of a charge works EXACTLY adding 20 kilos to the weight. Are you perchance arguing that the armor being distributed over a rider's body magically makes that weight (that's simply carried by the horse) disappear? You may have a quite interesting concept of physics, my friend.

This without even mentioning the fact that heavy knights charge with a lance, that concentrates the whole power of the momentum and weight on a very small tip and only follows with the impact of the horse's body, effectively bringing two impacts, the first of which is extremely powerful. Warg riders riders don't. Aiming a lance on a creature that jumps and skps around is quite beyond tricky.

When we compare the impact of a warg charge to an impact of a horse charge, we first need to know weither we are talking about movie wargs or book wargs. Book wargs are big wolves, which are sometimes used as mounts by goblins. certainly smaller than horses. Movie wargs on the other hand are huge hyina-bear-whatever-beasts. we saw a warhorse- vs wargcharge in the movies, and the horses didn't quite trample the wargs. they themselves were struck down by the wargs!

SOME (very few) warhorses get killed by the wargs (actually the riders get killed), just as some warhorses can get killed by wathever else. The general effect is quite evidently not nearly in favor of the wargs.

Also, wolves or hyenas don't make a difference. They both are animals that jump on their prey, they don't charge it.

Gimli lifting a warg isn't really a reference. Look at the armor the guy was wearing while he RAN all the way trough Rohan! John Rhys-Davies said he could only run for a few minutes in that armor.

too bad that lifting a big, heavy animal off yourself isn't just a fact of physical strenght, but also leverage, and a dwarf has less leverage than a human, being considerably shorter.
In that scene gimli didn't have ANY leverage, and it shows quite clearly that the warg isn't much bigger than him.

since we have the movie wargs in game, I suppose we'll have to compare them to horses. when horses and wargs charge eachother, the wargs charge wins. however, when they charge infantry, i'd go for the horses, since the wargriders don't have lances and can hardly charge as one unit, since their wargs aren't trained enough. So I agree on your thirth point.

If you think there's a scene in which wargs "win" against warhorses, you must have seen the fairy tale version of the lord of the rings.
In fact in the scene before the hornsburg the rohirrim pretty much tear the wargs to pieces, and do that with inferior numbers, without wearing full combat armor, without lances and on hilly terrain. So much for the wargs having any kind of advantage.

However, these beasts should definatly be better at melee-combat. I mean, look at them! they're ing huge! Look at their jaws! look at their claws!

jaws and claws are extremely short range weapons. And their size can't nearly be defined "huge". In fact they're ridden by small orcs,exactly because they're rather small creatures for a mount.

The use of semi-domesticated beasts in war is quite normal in Tolkiens world or the movies. Look at trolls. Look at mumakil. Training an elephant is quite hard, what about these babies.

Yay, apples to oranges. Trolls aren't mounts. Elephants are quite docile when trained, and their effectiveness in war has always been extremely limited whenever the surprise for their size and appearence was absent. Even in LOTR, mumakils get slaughtered as soon as people figure how to fight them.

[zowrath]

Wargs may not be heavy-cavalry in movies, but in the game it is designated as heavy-cavalry with a charge rate of 10 which is really good. Thing is, charging cavalry downhill may not trigger the charge at all. Some times they just loiter all the way to the target. If they do not charge in to their target they will get slaughtered reasonably fast.

When using heavy cavalry units, or any cavalry for that matter, charge-and-withdraw. Then charge again. Charge in and waste 20-40 soldiers, loose 1-3, withdraw. Charge again. This takes micromanagement, but works very well.

EDIT: And oh, providing a distraction when charging archers is good. Send a unit of Snagas to make the archers move, then charge with cavalry.

[Andreius Pretorianus]

the wargs are really good if you know how to use them

[Mikail Mengsk]

Wargs may not be heavy-cavalry in movies, but in the game it is designated as heavy-cavalry with a charge rate of 10 which is really good.

True, but they have not heavy armour, so i won't define them truly "heavy cavalry". Little armor means high losses, and that's the problem against archer-heavy enemies.

Anyway i modded them to make them more effective in melee than in charge: they have not enough mass nor heavy spears to have 10 charge bonus.

[zowrath]

True, but they have not heavy armour, so i won't define them truly "heavy cavalry". Little armor means high losses, and that's the problem against archer-heavy enemies.

Anyway i modded them to make them more effective in melee than in charge: they have not enough mass nor heavy spears to have 10 charge bonus.

Yes, that's why I mentioned using a diversion when charging. Like having a unit of Snagas chasing them. Because if the Wargs connect in a successful charge, they do good damage. But they are not good in a sustained fight. Charge, withdraw. Rinse and repeat.

[Rero]

charge through the enemy units by charging into them and then double clicking behind them much better than charge withdraw


CAV------->>INF----->>O new cav position

[zowrath]

charge through the enemy units by charging into them and then double clicking behind them much better than charge withdraw


CAV------->>INF----->>O new cav position

Not always. Some times it can actually hurt you more as you're lowering your defence when continuing through. If it is a full unit, then you will take a lot of hits doing this especially if they have deep ranks or in horde/loose formation. And never do it if they have bonus to fight cavalry, where charge-withdraw-charge actually still work. If they have shallow ranks or are few in numbers this is a viable tactic.

[Erunion Telcontar]

Wargs are really more 'light cavalry' than heavy cavalry. Use them to slow an enemy cavalry charge long enough to get your troops in position, to break 'wavering' troops or to chase down routers. Don't use them to charge high-morale, strong infantry.

[Lordinquisitor]

I found Wargs to be really effective, though they are glass cannons.

Most important is that they give the orcs some mobility.. How weak they might be they offer invaluable tactical options and so are quite important in any case.

Especially if you fight against the elves- I usually send some snaga cannonfodder forward to draw arrow fire while my wargs sneak behind the enemy lines. Then, once they are in position, i send my "good" infantry forward and break the enemy formation by hitting them from all sides.

Though, i use RC/RR and don`t play Vanilla without it since i`ve tasted the vanilla balance in 1.0. RC/RR makes the game far more balanced and fun. I hope it get`s updated soon.

[Makrell]

Worgs are OP they beat the crap out of gandalf and all others. Wargs are nto that good though, i suggest using wargs for the futuere

[Erunion Telcontar]

Glass cannons is the perfect way to describe them - Powerful, useful, but don't last long at all...