Flavius Aetius and his attempts to check the barbarians

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I've managed to get on through the school library, and I've been taking notes in peter heather's book and other books as well on Flavius Aetius and his compatriots. Many interesting thing. I intend to post my findings here.
For example:
Based on the law of 445, the revenue of N. Africa was reduced by 7/8 for mauretania and Numdia.
This is ~106,200 solidi, or about 17,700 comitatenses/10114.285 comitatensian cavalry.

I've estimated the total revenue lost from N. Africa including vandal-controlled Byzacena and Proconsularis at approximately 227,570.625 solidi, or about 37928.4375 comitatenses/21673.39286 comitatensian cavalry

Also, merobaudes kept a record of most every battle aetius fought until 443, looking into this further.

Another thing - 435 Aetius and Alans cleanse amorica of bacaudae and deforst the province and plant grain fields. (pg. 287, peter heather)

I intend to publish all of my notes and findings in this thread.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

M y calculations were incorrect - updated

[Constantius]

I've managed to get on through the school library, )

Sneaky, can't you at least post online with your phone?

[wulfgar610]

Based on the law of 445, the revenue of N. Africa was reduced by 7/8 for mauretania and Numdia.
This is ~106,200 solidi, or about 17,700 comitatenses/10114.285 comitatensian cavalry.

I've estimated the total revenue of N. Africa including vandal-controlled Byzacena and Proconsularis at approximately 227,570.625 solidi, or about 37928.4375 comitatenses/21673.39286 comitatensian cavalry

If you're going to say "approximately" I think we can dispense with the .625 solidi and the .4375 of soldier. It is believed that the period cash compensation averaged about 5 solidi for infantry and 9 solidi for cavalry per annum. But their food supplies also counted as wages, so there was no use paying coin and not feeding them.

Comitatenses are believed to have received around 50% more cash compensation than limitanei.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

If you're going to say "approximately" I think we can dispense with the .625 solidi and the .4375 of soldier. It is believed that the period cash compensation averaged about 5 solidi for infantry and 9 solidi for cavalry per annum. But their food supplies also counted as wages, so there was no use paying coin and not feeding them.

Comitatenses are believed to have received around 50% more cash compensation than limitanei.

I based this on the figure of 6 solidi per comitatensian infantryman and 10.5 per cavalry.

Also, that's supposed to be revenue lost, the total revenue was about 15k more, not including tripolitania, which was untouched by the vandals and therefore had a considerably greater revenue than mauretania and numidia. It was also very fertile and used extensively for farming between Tripoli and Leptis Magna

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

One thing more - you know the attempted joint Aetius-ERE coalition of 440? Well I looked into that and:

According to Peter Heather, In 468 the WRE could field 300 ships, about 70 men each including horses and supplies
According to Theophanes, the WRE fielded 1100 ships at Panormus, and then sailed around to join the ERE fleet. This indicates that the ERE did not supply the ships, and that the force was much larger than anticipated, although a substantial portion may have been combat ships rather than transports. Also on Mar. 20, 440 a law was passed that according to the Nov. Val. there was a massive conscription of troops - likely in preperation of the Vandal campaign. These were probably temperary troops just used to swell/replenish the ranks of the roman army in preperation to fight the Vandals

[Dragases]

One thing more - you know the attempted joint Aetius-ERE coalition of 440? Well I looked into that and:

According to Peter Heather, In 468 the WRE could field 300 ships, about 70 men each including horses and supplies
According to Theophanes, the WRE fielded 1100 ships at Panormus, and then sailed around to join the ERE fleet. This indicates that the ERE did not supply the ships, and that the force was much larger than anticipated, although a substantial portion may have been combat ships rather than transports. Also on Mar. 20, 440 a law was passed that according to the Nov. Val. there was a massive conscription of troops - likely in preperation of the Vandal campaign. These were probably temperary troops just used to swell/replenish the ranks of the roman army in preperation to fight the Vandals

The Western Roman Army barely had a fleet in the post-Valentinian III era; nevermind 300 or 1100 ships. If they ever had a navy close to those numbers the Vandals would never have been able to menace the Mediterranean with their piracy. Check out the appendix in MacGeorge's Late Roman Warlords about naval warfare in that period. Theophanes wrote in the 9th (!) century, so be extremely carefully do take his word for anything when not checked with contemporary Western sources.

You rely almost exclusively on Peter Heather. Is there any general topic in the forum that discusses sources, books or articles about Western-Roman History? I'll gladly add a number of works that should help increase layman/academic knowledge among the RTW community

[Valentinian Victor]

The Western Roman Army barely had a fleet in the post-Valentinian III era; nevermind 300 or 1100 ships. If they ever had a navy close to those numbers the Vandals would never have been able to menace the Mediterranean with their piracy. Check out the appendix in MacGeorge's Late Roman Warlords about naval warfare in that period. Theophanes wrote in the 9th (!) century, so be extremely carefully do take his word for anything when not checked with contemporary Western sources.

You rely almost exclusively on Peter Heather. Is there any general topic in the forum that discusses sources, books or articles about Western-Roman History? I'll gladly add a number of works that should help increase layman/academic knowledge among the RTW community

The abortive attack on Vandal held North Africa by a combined Western and Eastern Late Roman army had a substantial fleet to support it. Unfortunately, due to a combination of wind blowing from the wrong direction, ineptitude on behalf of the Roman commanders, and possibly treachery, the Roman fleet was destroyed without putting up much of a fight. Depending on which source you use you do get the figures quoted i.e. between 300 and 1100 ships in total.

There is already a book list section, see here- http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=224786 please feel free to add!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Merobaudes - (peter heather 284/285)
425 - Joins Aetius and fights in all of his campaigns until 443
July 30, 435 - Merobaudes has a statue of him erected by Aetius in honor of his skills as a warrior and as a poet
The same year he was elevated to senatorial status by Aetius and made a Patrician. Then he was elevated to Magister Militum per Hispanias for fighting with distinction in the Alpine campaigns of 435.
Merobaudes also offers us insight into the way Aetius lived in one of his pangeyrics - he describes him as living the life of an ordinary soldier, and using his free time to layout tactical plans, select battlefields, and determine strategies.
He also provides us with most of what we know about Aetius campaigns.

He details that the Victory that drove the Visigoths back into Bordeaux in 438 was at a certain "Snake Mountain". This may possibly be the battle of Mons Colubrarius.
Also he details that Aetius' Victory over the franks along the rhine in 428 regained land for the Romans.

Also - figured it out - the reason why the huns attacked the ERE in 440s and not the 430s is because the Huns were serving Aetius up until 439- just my theory :
of course other factors would play into this - huns not properly united, attila and Bleda securing power, etc.

More to come still.

[wulfgar610]

Also - figured it out - the reason why the huns attacked the ERE in 440s and not the 430s is because the Huns were serving Aetius up until 439- just my theory :
of course other factors would play into this - huns not properly united, attila and Bleda securing power, etc.

It only took a few Hunnic legions at most to completly crush the Burgundians. By the early 430's the Huns counted 15 legions, what were the rest doing?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

It depends - Hydatius reports 20000 Burgundians were slain; it might have taken a lot to pull off such a feat as to genocidally slaughter an entire nation.

Other New Info: Peter Heather page 330
Hungarian Plain is about 42,400 km2 - if you account for Forests and other animals, this was capable of supporting about 150000 horses
The average Hun needed 8-10 horses to successfully maintain him on campaign or in combat. This puts a maximum army size between 15-18.75k.
Add the Allies (Amali goths, for example according to pg. 330, could field about 10000 men)

After surveying the numbers from the loss of Africa - I've been recalculating the total number of troops Aetius could maintain as of 450:

- As discussed in another thread Sidonius Apollinaris states that Aetius had Auxilia Exquisiti (Auxilia Palatina) and Milites Romani (A combination of Garrison and Field Troops most likely) in 451 - totaling about 13,000 (5000 Auxilia and 8000 Romani) based on the troops stationed there in the ND
- Marcellinus had high quality Field Troops, easily capable of defeating Ricimer as of 457 (I think) when his account was written. Therefore I'm putting based on the ND and unit reductions between 5 and 10000 troops under Marcellinus, Border garrisons included.
- Aegidius had 12000 men in 453, as recorded by Theodoric II. This is probably accurate as it was recorded by a barbarian. We'll say this is a combination of Garrison, Foederati, and Field Troops
- Africa probably was very lightly defended, therefore I'm gonna give that about 3000 Garrison and Foederati Troops, as the last 2 field regiments were destroyed in 429, along with 4 units of Palatinae at Hippo Regius
- in 442/443/446, Spain was re-enforced multiple times with a considerable body of troops under the command of Vitus and the MM per Hispanias Merobaudes. So a few thousand is likely, maybe around 3-5 thousand
This totals:
About 5000 Palatinae
About 10000 Field Troops
About 15000 Foederati and Garrison Troops
30000 Total - and this is about the middle of the spectrum I'm putting it at
These calculations are probably not the most accurate, but considering the timeframe and current threats, this was a fairly decent amount to work with.

[wulfgar610]

It depends - Hydatius reports 20000 Burgundians were slain; it might have taken a lot to pull off such a feat as to genocidally slaughter an entire nation.

Other New Info: Peter Heather page 330
Hungarian Plain is about 42,400 km2 - if you account for Forests and other animals, this was capable of supporting about 150000 horses
The average Hun needed 8-10 horses to successfully maintain him on campaign or in combat. This puts a maximum army size between 15-18.75k.
Add the Allies (Amali goths, for example according to pg. 330, could field about 10000 men)

This is the sort of foolishness Phil Barker warned about. The modern population of horses in the Hungary is 1.5 million.......that's just the nation of Hungary.........not the entire Hungarian plain....the Romanian plain or the steppes. 42,400 km could support over 4 million horses at one per hectare of good grazing. It does pay to move the horses off every now and again because the horses hooves damage the turf and to allow the turf to regenerate. And don't knock lame horses, they are excellent eating!

Pre WW1 Britain had 3 million horses. The US had 20 million horses, 1 horse to every 3 people.

The thing about Hungary like Kentucky in the US is exceptionally good pasture land, which is why it was so popular with nomads. (funny that!) Today's Kentucky holds around 1 million of the 5 million horses in the US today.

As for Aetius and the Roman, they could have all the troops they wanted......if they could pay them! That was the problem........money. Mobile units that didn't get paid soon settled down to try and grow a living. The Roman Empire could have fielded an army of 3 million if it could have paid them.

There were plenty of troops and ex-troops, their only demand was cross my palm with silver.

[juvenus]

the number of 30.000 troops for the entire Roman forces in the west sounds quite reasonable and plausible.
could you please tell me again what sources apart from Heater you used.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Of course, I listed
The one thing Theodoric II (KotVisigoths in 453) wrote
Idatius
Comes Flavius Marcellinus
Merobaudes
Sidonius Apollinaris
'bout it

[juvenus]

thnx

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Don't forget -that's with modern infrastructure, the huns didn't NEARLY have the Infrastructure to maintain such a population of Horses back then, even if the area was relatively romanized.

Refining my Late Roman Army size again - I think I figured it out:

The Auxiliarum Exquisite and the Milites Romani Aetius took with him to chalons likely were the entire Excercitus Gallicani and therefore the troops Aegidius had in 453 were likely these such troops from Chalons. Therefore:

Aetius: 451/Aegidius: 453 - Excercitus Gallicani
~4000 Auxilia Palatina and ~8000 Milites Romani (Probably Comitatenses, or A mixture of PseudoComitatenses and the former)
Let's say 3000 in Mauretania and Tripolitania
Marcellinus: 457-460s - Excercitus Illlyrici
~10000 Comitatenses and Limitanei
We know Noricum still had some troops left from the writings of St. Whatever-his-name-was
So ~1000 there
Merobaudes: 446 - Excercitus Hispanienses
~5000

So this would account for most of the WRE, and we should add about 5000 more for various Limitanei in Gaul and Field Units in Italy
So this brings the number to: 31000

Seems right to me...

[wulfgar610]

Don't forget -that's with modern infrastructure, the huns didn't NEARLY have the Infrastructure to maintain such a population of Horses back then, even if the area was relatively romanized.

Horses eat grass! 4 million horses for the Hungarian plain is an extreme maximum that couldn't be reached in reality. But Heathers calculations for 150,000 are extremity, extremely bad. Hisorians have had a habit of severely underestimating humans populations for example, according to Hisotitans the known population of the city of Rome of 1 million people is impossible.

Aegidius had 12000 men in 453, as recorded by Theodoric II. This is probably accurate as it was recorded by a barbarian. We'll say this is a combination of Garrison, Foederati, and Field Troops

Typically a Field army was about 12,000 strong, the problem in the period wasn't numbers so much as quality. But you keep on making the same mistake, garrison were just that. They would fight to protect their province and that is about it.

You keep on making the same mistake, just because fighting men existed doesn't mean they would automatically join and follow Aetius hundreds of miles to some far away place.

[Valentinian Victor]

Horses eat grass! 4 million horses for the Hungarian plain is an extreme maximum that couldn't be reached in reality. But Heathers calculations for 150,000 are extremity, extremely bad. Hisorians have had a habit of severely underestimating humans populations for example, according to Hisotitans the known population of the city of Rome of 1 million people is impossible.

Typically a Field army was about 12,000 strong, the problem in the period wasn't numbers so much as quality. But you keep on making the same mistake, garrison were just that. They would fight to protect their province and that is about it.

You keep on making the same mistake, just because fighting men existed doesn't mean they would automatically join and follow Aetius hundreds of miles to some far away place.

Actually, Horses have to eat more than grass to keep healty and trim and to build muscles. All horses are also fed high energy grains such as oats, barley etc. If they were fed entirely on grass then they would hardly be able to ride into battle, let alone sustain a man on horse back for hours on end. So, calculations based soley on the amount of grass are wildly inaccurate in any case.

[wulfgar610]

So, calculations based soley on the amount of grass are wildly inaccurate in any case.

What I reckon is wildly inaccuarate is this one.

Other New Info: Peter Heather page 330
Hungarian Plain is about 42,400 km2 - if you account for Forests and other animals, this was capable of supporting about 150000 horses
The average Hun needed 8-10 horses to successfully maintain him on campaign or in combat. This puts a maximum army size between 15-18.75k.

However due to facts provided the times we speak of i dont think there were many wild horses left in Europe. In captivity horses r taken care of by humans so their numbers r dependent on the will of their masters (veterinary aid, hay and oats in winter, stables, protection from weather and predators, breeding) which in turn makes cost maintainance high and infrastructure needed. If u look at the Mongol army of 150,000 in 1200s. They had only several hundred thousands horses at most and they controlled entire steppe.

We were discussing the 15k strong army of Attila, not GK's 150k army. And it didn't worry the Huns how many horses didn't make it, they were good eating.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

yes, true but you musn't forget Aegidius was trained by Aetius, and my recalculations show that Aegidius' men in 453 and Aetius' ment in 451 are likely yo be the same troops. After all Novidunum and Chalons are not too far away from each other, only 100 miles if that even.