Sorry but laziness leads me to post topic probably answered ages ago

[coit105]

Just a thought, was removing the testudo formation actually historically accurate? Because I have a big book on Rome and a small book on Rome, I do classical civilisation A2, I wikipedia loadsa randomly, essentially I'm a massive classics neek, and the only source that has ever pegged the testudo as a historical myth seems to be the Rome: Total Realism mod. Would like to know why it's been removed and possibly be enlightened to the inaccuracy's that I've been taught over the years through whatever whacky, yet awesome, sources you guys have come across.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

I'm no RTR historian, but I believe the testudo like we know it was adopted when the empire "settled" down a bit (post-Augustan). Since RTR concentrates on the time up until Augustus, it doesn't have legionnaires with testudo. Iirc originally in Caesar's time, the testudo was just a shieldwall.

[Delta146]

Basically, from what I understand, the testudo formation was not used until the very end of the time period covered by the mod, and it was still not used widely. So, essentially, it's out of the time frame. Pretty much the same reason that Evropa Barbarorvm left it out.

[Spartan198]

Pretty much the same reason that Evropa Barbarorvm left it out.

Last time I played EB (which was October or November last year), it had testudo.

[Delta146]

Last time I played EB (which was October or November last year), it had testudo.

They only have it for the Avgvstan legionaries, though, IIRC.

[coit105]

Answer to Bulle3tpr00f; could you not just have a shield wall then as a substitute?
Answer to Both; source?

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

On the shieldwall: Good one. Most probably, yes, but the AI never uses it unless scripted to do so (and I don't know if this was already known when RTR 6 was released), so it would just give an advantage to the player

[coit105]

1. Surely if Rome is one faction in the game, then this doesn't really matter in the campaign.
2. How hard is it to script something like that? (What I make up for in classical knowledge, I lack in the technology department)

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

1. Let's put it this way: Shieldwall is overpowered. The player (playing as Rome) would use it and would overrun every enemy he could find. Not fun at all and not the way it worked in history
2. Not hard at all, but I don't think there was that much knowledge of the engine to do such a thing during the time RTR 6 was released. I could be wrong, of course.

[coit105]

1. Is it really? I see it just as a close range phalanx but with slightly stronger defense from an attack on the flanks.
2. So when is version 7.0 coming out then?

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

1. That's the thing, yes. But the engine seems to prefer warriors who are in that stance, for some reason
2. When it's done
But seriously though, it can't be very long. RTRVII (that's the official name) is currently a pretty playable mod, so it's pretty polished already. I'm secretly enjoying my beta campaign as a barbarian faction I can't promise a release time, of course . . .

[coit105]

1. Well since the Marian reforms, historically, came in around Marius' life-time, astonishingly, you wouldn't even be cracking open the controversy over shield walls until 107 b.c. if the game is to be taken truly seriously as a historically based game.
2. Sounds brilliant! Good luck to you on your barbarian conquests sir!

[Remlap]

The ai would only be able to use tetsudo in a scripted battle, so most fights wouldn't have. Then there is the other issue of BI not having tetsudo, and without the ability to put in custom abilities it is impossible to have a true tetsudo in RTR VII. It might have been possible in 6.0 but the ai limitations made it a powerhouse technique for the player.

[Needs New Name]

The ai would only be able to use tetsudo in a scripted battle, so most fights wouldn't have. Then there is the other issue of BI not having tetsudo, and without the ability to put in custom abilities it is impossible to have a true tetsudo in RTR VII. It might have been possible in 6.0 but the ai limitations made it a powerhouse technique for the player.

I did a custom battle yesterday on Vanilla Rome against legionaries and when my peltasts surrounded them they formed a testudo. Does that still mean it would have to be scripted to be used by the AI in a campaign?

[Remlap]

Really? You must have a million dollar AI then. Mine never did that ever.

[coit105]

1. So it's not easy to just script them to do it in certain circumstances
2. See last point entitled '1.' That was a huge disappointment for me, I mean here I was expecting to fight Carthage on roughly the same terms as the ACTUAL Rome did (stress ROUGHLY; not man for man but in the same formation; the acer triplex, you understand what I mean) and then suddenly it's just gone two hundred and something B.C. and 'Marian Reforms!' I'm not going to lie, this being the bare minimum expected from a game entitled 'total realism', I. Was. Gutted. Is there no way that you could change the date to 107 B.C.?

[Clearchus of Sparta]

The AI is not as smart as we'd like, but then we are never satisfied - lol

There are too many game engine limits to be able to create a mod that spans epochs in one go.
RTR chose to start there mod in 280 BC because the ancient world was balanced in terms of factions and emmpires and any one of a number could have risen to emulate Rome.

Starting in 107 BC would give Rome way too much of an advantage.

The only other way, is have a mod specifically cover a smaller map area, but you will find that even then, the starting positions of each faction in the mod, needs to be balanced otherwise the gameplay would quickly become tedious.

TIC (The Iberian Conflict) does this to some extent, by only having Carthage and the Iberian tribes pitted against each other and simulates the Carthginian conquest of Iberia.

Other mods such as RS II would probably be better suited to your needs as its set in the Empire. I havent played it myself so I cant tell you if the "tortoise" is included, but it does feature named legions.

Hope this helps

Just for the record, It takes approximately 2 years to see a mod through from start to finish

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

He probably means having the Marian Reforms in 107 BC, which is perfectly possible. Just don't let the cities in Italy get 24000 inhabitants before 107 (Marian reforms are triggered by building a Hugy city in Italy).

Also, continuing on the realism part: as soon as the first turn ends, it isn't realism anymore. You can't force the player to play historical, and you can't force the AI to be exactly historical. It's just not done like that. If it was completely historical, it would become boring, since you'd have the same campaign over and over and over again.

[coit105]

OK Clearchus, you got it totally wrong; I do mean set the Marian forms to 107 B.C. not 'change the start date to 107 B.C.' not sure how you got so confused. I phrased it in a fairly easy to understand way. I really think creating new reformed legionaries after 107 B.C. along with much higher upkeep (the original legionaries weren't always paid properly by the state if I remember correctly) would balance out the change, to shield wall, enough; it'd encourage the player to play in a way so as to have fairly large forces, or even just one large force, on the edges of their territory and then not so many further in. This is how Rome managed it's extremities in real life, they had so called 'frontier forces'. This'd also make a rebellion much harder to quell and a large enough force to break through the players 'frontiers' much harder to stop, as barbarian 'hordes' tended to be. It'd make for a much more colourful game.

Bull3tpr00f I realise it's impossible to make it 100% realistic because of everybody's different playing style, but it really really irritates me every time it happens because I have quite a passion for realism and suspected that the team behind this mod were too, seeing how they fling it around a lot. I do apologise if I come across a little aggressive about it at times though, that's just me.

[Clearchus of Sparta]

oops,

then in that case, I believe we are bringing reform units into VII, providing the coders "get back to work"