extent of France & other factions

[bleach]

I was just thinking today, isn't France's territory much too big in the Early & High campaigns? Toulouse for instance wasn't added to the kingdom until the 13th century, and in the start of the High Campaign they were in the midst of the Albigesian Crusade, with open warfare against Cathars in the county... and in the Early campaign France had very little territory, almost the whole country should be rebels at that time.

And the Holy Roman Empire was not so unified either, and was especially fragmented in the Late and Renaissance eras...even if Duchies like Florence and Milan were nominally part of the empire, they were for all intents and purposes independent, along with many other territories. While France grew the Empire's lands dwindled...

That is unless the SV modders have a different idea of what a faction is than I do. I always thought it was the territory under the ruling dynasties. immediate control, but perhaps in this mod they are intended to be all the land they claimed to control as well.

[codix105]

hi bleach thats because your playing 3.3 were almost to 4.0 so S.V. didnt change it much but I agree it does need a little resizing

[VINC.XXIII]

"I was just thinking today, isn't France's territory much too big in the Early & High campaigns?"

I agree totally about the Early Campaign, France need to have one very harsh/hard/impossible Campaign.
For the High stage, France need to be potentially powerfull, but menaced by the big continental holdings of the English. According if the Campaign start before or after the confiscation of the Jean Sans Terre's holdings by Phillipe Auguste...


Territorial expansion of the royal domain under Philip Augustus, 1180 to 1223; blue: royal domain, red: Plantagenet/English held lands, yellow: church held lands, green: other French lands.

"Other French Lands" are more or less the apanages(for the King's family) and some other fiefs(sometimes more ancient dynasties than the capetian line!)



You see what I mean?
I have better maps in my books, but those are very well too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_lands_of_France

look at the maps...
I'm french and simply I hat to see France too powerfull while certain periods...
You will see the future Renaissance Map...the great apanages will be really powerfull, as Bretagne, Bourgogne and Bourbon

[SicilianVespers]

This is really a concession to help maintain historic borders. If you start with that vanilla free for all, the kingdoms end up not looking anything even close to historic.

In france's case, we all know the royal power was pretty much limited to the ile de France, but the rest of France still technically owed homage to the King. So, it is not unhistoric at all.

Basically, if you want the campaign map to maintain some historic looking borders, you need to start the campaigns like this, and use the campaign script to help direct the AI's expansion.

The same applies to the HRE, the King has his stem Duchy, but the rest of the Dukes still owe him their allegiance.

[bleach]

This is really a concession to help maintain historic borders. If you start with that vanilla free for all, the kingdoms end up not looking anything even close to historic.

In france's case, we all know the royal power was pretty much limited to the ile de France, but the rest of France still technically owed homage to the King. So, it is not unhistoric at all.

Basically, if you want the campaign map to maintain some historic looking borders, you need to start the campaigns like this, and use the campaign script to help direct the AI's expansion.

The same applies to the HRE, the King has his stem Duchy, but the rest of the Dukes still owe him their allegiance.

Ok those are good reasons, but I still don't understand why Toulouse is not a rebel province even in the High era which begins right in the Albigensian crusade.

And it could still be beneficial to break up the HRE in the Renaissance particularly, I mean how much are historical borders even desirable there? 1401 the Emperor was Charles IV King of Bohemia and Count of Luxembourg, which makes him a pretty strong monarch without giving him the whole empire, and frankly makes a whole lot more sense, historically and gameplay-wise, than having a megastate in central Europe and northern Italy during that era.

[VINC.XXIII]

"Dukes still owe him their allegiance. "

Some apanages praticed complet collaboration with the foreign kingdoms enemies of the Lys
Comté de Toulouse(13century): liking of the Aragon and sometimes the HRE
Bretagne(14/15century): liking of the England and same HRE
Bourbon(16century): Charles the duke of Bourbon was the most great traitor ever seen in France. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_I...ne-Montpensier

[husker9.2]

"Dukes still owe him their allegiance. "

Some apanages praticed complet collaboration with the foreign kingdoms enemies of the Lys
Comté de Toulouse(13century): liking of the Aragon and sometimes the HRE
Bretagne(14/15century): liking of the England and same HRE
Bourbon(16century): Charles the duke of Bourbon was the most great traitor ever seen in France. http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlo_I...ne-Montpensier

I wouldn't say this was out of the ordinary too much, Being of high noble birth often gave you extraordinary opportunities that even today would seem traitorous, but back then was politics. I wil have too dig but i know of several more stories like this, the most notable, El Cid.


In the case of France in those years they had weak Kings, when you have weak rulers local authority takes over.
This happened in every Kingdom/Empire at one point or the other, sometimes it leads too their destruction, France was just lucky a little peasant Girl showed up at the right time.

What SV has done is totally historical in almost every regard, we limit France too how you guys mentioned the AI will not be able too cope with the Challenges and France will always be the first faction too go.

Also I may be wrong but the maps you posted, the Dark blue may signify under direct Royal Control. The rest belonging too Fiefs of the French king. I have seen similar maps before i think and the legend said something too that tune.


But over all i wouldn't be against handi-capping the French, In almost all my campaigns they turn into a juggernaut of Napoleon and Charlemagne esque invincibility.

[sputnik]

Basically, if you want the campaign map to maintain some historic looking borders, you need to start the campaigns like this, and use the campaign script to help direct the AI's expansion

This is exactly what I have been trying to do with British Isles darkage and now Danish campaign script.

Harald Bluetooths Kingdom

The Kingdom is red and the vassals are pink.

Obviously Normandy should not be a Danish province and I believe neither should Norway. There is a percentage chance that Stettin, Koenigsberg and Göteborg become Danish in this period.

It is difficult because you must both contain and encourage AI expansion to fit the period but also retain a non-linear AI expansion pattern where acceptable. At the moment I am finding it very difficult to encourage naval invasions and settlement. I have scripted various AI controlled Denmark random chance spawns and sieges with certain conditions to facilitate this. I am considering also adding scripts to encourage revolts and rebel siege in these provinces which would help direct the AI historically.

Unfortunately some historical concessions have to be made for the game to remain fun.

[VINC.XXIII]

"But over all i wouldn't be against handi-capping the French, In almost all my campaigns they turn into a juggernaut of Napoleon and Charlemagne esque invincibility. "

thanks^^, as I said, I'm french and I hate see my proper land become "juggernaut"
No need to be more monarchist than the King himself^^

"Also I may be wrong but the maps you posted, the Dark blue may signify under direct Royal Control. The rest belonging too Fiefs of the French king. I have seen similar maps before i think and the legend said something too that tune."

I know, but one map don't make difference between the loyals/submissivs feudataires, and the bad boys as Toulouse, Bourgogne, Normandie, Bretagne. According the Era...

"Toulouse is not a rebel province "
Totally agreed, Toulouse is the "anti-France", they spoken another idiome(latin too), they are less "germanics" than the north french, and btw all the south lords was more linked to the Aragon as "small brothers". I speak about Comté de Provence, Comté de Foix, and Comté de Toulouse essentially. This before the Crusade against Cathares.
After this Crusade, french lords as Monfort started the epuration, to get the South more "french".

[husker9.2]

"But over all i wouldn't be against handi-capping the French, In almost all my campaigns they turn into a juggernaut of Napoleon and Charlemagne esque invincibility. "

thanks^^, as I said, I'm french and I hate see my proper land become "juggernaut"
No need to be more monarchist than the King himself^^

"Also I may be wrong but the maps you posted, the Dark blue may signify under direct Royal Control. The rest belonging too Fiefs of the French king. I have seen similar maps before i think and the legend said something too that tune."

I know, but one map don't make difference between the loyals/submissivs feudataires, and the bad boys as Toulouse, Bourgogne, Normandie, Bretagne. According the Era...

Well i certainly believe that they should start off with the same # of factions, but if the king was historically weak at the beginning then the French player should be dealing with less than loyal Generals and rebellious settlements. But not too the point it is ridiculous.

i see your point.

[VINC.XXIII]

"French player should be dealing with less than loyal Generals and rebellious settlements"
its would be the best compromise...with a small scripting to get the rebels "harsh" and very interested to make the King's life more hard.
Personally I had the Bretagne as rebel for the starting of Renaissance Era, its really more true.
Well I repeat that...but get away the Lusignan Kingdom of Cyprus, totally moribund while the 15 century, replace by Bourgogne!!! The most brillant french fief(second economic area with the Flandres after Italia).
Never I thinked to add Toulouse or other fief as playable factions, ever I spoken about the fiefs as strong rebel factions. Save for the Angevins, who had very interesting multinational interactions with Provence, Italia and Balkans.

[SicilianVespers]

I am open to making Toulouse a strong rebel state. I have already been discussing this with Almogaver in PM, and I think it is a good idea.

It may be possible to represent this situation with the "You are not my King" trait, and some strong rebel stacks. Basically, the province would be part of France, but you would be forced to clean up the rebels to bring the province into line.

@Rus-Bey

I like the idea of swapping Cyprus for Burgundy. It will really add to the Renaissance campaign.

I'm not sure how an AI France would cope with this, but if this works we should be able to do this in many places on the map. It may even add to the roleplaying element.

[WinsingtonIII]

I am open to making Toulouse a strong rebel state. I have already been discussing this with Almogaver in PM, and I think it is a good idea.

It may be possible to represent this situation with the "You are not my King" trait, and some strong rebel stacks. Basically, the province would be part of France, but you would be forced to clean up the rebels to bring the province into line.

@Rus-Bey

I like the idea of swapping Cyprus for Burgundy. It will really add to the Renaissance campaign.

I know I'm late to the party, but I second all of these ideas. France is currently a bit too unified in the early and high eras, I understand the wish not to make them too weak and the fact that most of the major houses owed allegiance to the king, but I do think Toulouse should be independent. This would also stop the French from mucking about in Catalonia within 10 years of starting the early campaign.

Also, I don't know if this was only a RTW feature or if it's in M2TW, but perhaps having the southern French cities exhibit high levels of unrest due to "cultural differences" when under French control would help demonstrate the very real cultural differences between the north and south in the early and high eras and threaten the unity of the kingdom.

Burgundy would certainly be a welcome addition to a campaign starting during the Hundred Years' War.

[VINC.XXIII]

"@Rus-Bey
I like the idea of swapping Cyprus for Burgundy. It will really add to the Renaissance campaign."
I am open to making Toulouse a strong rebel state. I have already been discussing this with Almogaver in PM, and I think it is a good idea."

Perfect!!! its upper than honnest by this way...!!
Blessing for you and Almogaver lol, sorry for my quick temper, I'm as my Genoese Town Guard in my sig, absolutly conservative and no tergiversation with history^^

[VINC.XXIII]

As you can see...The Duché de Bourgogne is really the most sexiest faction...all girls want get married with the Burgundian heir!
As Republic of Venexa, I don't have any impact about this part of the map. And for infos, I was very generous and optimist for France, normally the Artois should be burgundian too...

[husker9.2]

My assumption would be that Burgundy would stall France for a short while until France's numerical superiority took over.

But I think adding Burgundy would be a good idea. They did quite well against France in the 100 years war and got the better of them several different times.

[RollingWave]

Yeah but most of the other larger factions have similar issue as well, (Moors and Turks most notably, Egypt during the Ayyubid period, Cumans, Kievan Rus and Poland too etc...)

Moors for example was a collection of Berber (and later on Arab) Tribes in the Maghreb + City States in Andalusia, both are independent minded by nature, which explains why the Almoravid and Almohads both bombed big time in very short periods. Such coalition simply can't hold without a true strongmen who also needs circumstances to go his way.

The engine have limitation on how to depict this, my idea is essentially to make those regions more rebel prone . so if you leave a very thin defense within sometimes they'll end up being captured by rebels etc..

[VINC.XXIII]

"The engine have limitation on how to depict this"
sure, with 30 factions its hard to reflect the reality about the diversity of the states. For me the "rebels/slaves" aren't the league of the pirates/anarchists lol...Some rebels presents here are very respectables, as the Swiss, Florence, Raguse or the Navarre. Isn't visible, but the Sweden is independant too...hard to make the Kalmar Union by this way.
In my map, by scripting and other adjustements, I tryed to reflect this historic diversity, same if isn't perfect. I hate to see the game becoming totally...anachronic, unhistoric...etc.
My idea is to make the game hard for the AI's factions, not only for the gamer.
Actually I try to increase the liking of the AI's factions about the forts just at side of the ressources. To simulate one "colonialist" side, less to have big empires. By this way they would have great commercial rents, less hold one entire continent...

This Early Colonialist side concern only Castilla, Portugal, Genoa and Venexa. But its one hard way to match this...AI is really stupid. The small factions thinks exactly as the big empires.

[husker9.2]

"The engine have limitation on how to depict this"
sure, with 30 factions its hard to reflect the reality about the diversity of the states. For me the "rebels/slaves" aren't the league of the pirates/anarchists lol...Some rebels presents here are very respectables, as the Swiss, Florence, Raguse or the Navarre. Isn't visible, but the Sweden is independant too...hard to make the Kalmar Union by this way.
In my map, by scripting and other adjustements, I tryed to reflect this historic diversity, same if isn't perfect. I hate to see the game becoming totally...anachronic, unhistoric...etc.
My idea is to make the game hard for the AI's factions, not only for the gamer.
Actually I try to increase the liking of the AI's factions about the forts just at side of the ressources. To simulate one "colonialist" side, less to have big empires. By this way they would have great commercial rents, less hold one entire continent...

This Early Colonialist side concern only Castilla, Portugal, Genoa and Venexa. But its one hard way to match this...AI is really stupid. The small factions thinks exactly as the big empires.

The hard code has been the greatest foe of modding since day one. I think the whole community is still holding out some hope CA will release a patch raising the limits.

[VINC.XXIII]

"CA will release a patch raising the limits. "
I had heard of this on the french forums..., I wait ever this small gift from CA...