More variety for Sarmatians

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Sarmatians are massively lacking in variety as it presently stands in a wide number of unit types, I think more should be added.

They need a unit of pretty weak foot infantry and perhaps some skirmishers aswell.

Didn't the Sarmatians (or was it the Scythians) have female warriers so some of those could be added. Perhaps the foot archers should be female and a unit of cavalry as well.

Female troops would be slightly weaker than males of the same arnament but all non-Sarmatian units should become uneasy when faced with female warriers to represent the cultural unease/disgust of other civilizations, which translates into a lower morale.

Just something has to be done to make the Sarmatians less dull.

[Aismov]

Oh dear, not more about the female units... enough already!

Men fought battles in antiquity, not women. Most of the tales (like the Amazons) were moralizing themes that were meant to show the Greeks how a woman should not behave. Although there is certainly a degree of truth in the accounts, it is just as much of a stretch as interpreting 3-4 lines in Tacitus (Germania) and Plutarch (Life of Marius) and come to the conclusion that Germans fielded "cheerleaders" of "screetching women."


But otherwise I agree with you that the Sarmatians are lacking in variety, however I think you might want to take that issue up with some chieftans circa 200 B.C. since that is how they fought.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Men fought battles in antiquity, not women. Most of the tales (like the Amazons) were moralizing themes that were meant to show the Greeks how a woman should not behave. Although there is certainly a degree of truth in the accounts, it is just as much of a stretch as interpreting 3-4 lines in Tacitus (Germania) and Plutarch (Life of Marius) and come to the conclusion that Germans fielded "cheerleaders" of "screetching women."

The Germans screeching women are probably just the families of the warriers, which would be in game terms harmless civilians (and hence not feutured). The Celtic warriers often brought their families along in wagons to watch and egg on the menfolk but they took no part in the actual fighting.

The Sarmatians or Scythians (whichever it was?) did use women soldiers though, I learned about it from a reputable history program. Something which shocked the romans quite a bit, expecially since the romans kind of lost and were forced to desist their expansion in the north -eastern area.

So it is entirely historical to give Sarmatians female warriors.

[Last Roman]

TI learned about it from a reputable history program.

If its reputable, then I wouldnt trust it

I think you mean respectable

[{nF}remix]

what bugs me is that the mercenaries "sarmatian skirmishers" are available, but not to the sarmatian faction..

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

If its reputable, then I wouldnt trust it

I think you mean respectable

If the Sarmatians fielded female warriers historicly why not in the game?
The units Sarmatians should have

Sarmatian Warlord bodyguard
Sarmatian Horse Archers (male)
Sarmatian Horse Archers (female)
Sarmatian Lancers (male)
Sarmatian Lancers (female)
Sarmatian archers (female)
Sarmatian skirmisers (male)

[Dark89]

And we get the exact 6.x list, only with the addition of female warriors.

[Aismov]

The idea that the Sarmatians fielded "armies" comprised of women is just plain nuts. Think about it for a second - who would take care of the home and the children if the women were gone? What would happen to the future of the tribe/kingdom if the majority of the women were killed. A handful of men can impregnate dozens, even hundreds of women - a women can only get pregnant once every 9 months.

As exotic and "cool" sounding women warriors are, incorporating them into the game as a dedicated female unit is contorting history beyond all recognition. Did Sarmation women sometimes shoot a bow when extreme circumstances required it? I'm sure they did. But then again, an old lady killed King Pyrrhus by dropping a roof tile on his head from a balcony/window while he was rampaging through a town (Plutarch: Life of Pyrrhus). Does that mean we should also model a "female town auxilia" unit?

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

And we get the exact 6.x list, only with the addition of female warriors.

That's just the types of units, although I should probably add some kind of spearmen to the list , not very brilliant spearment, but spearmen never the less.

The idea that the Sarmatians fielded "armies" comprised of women is just plain nuts. Think about it for a second - who would take care of the home and the children if the women were gone? What would happen to the future of the tribe/kingdom if the majority of the women were killed. A handful of men can impregnate dozens, even hundreds of women - a women can only get pregnant once every 9 months.

The White huns practiced polyandry, where one woman has more than one husband. Actually concieving children is usually a small part of the problem, the problem is raising them.

Mobilizing women aswell as men actually has the advantage in that it allows you to field twice the number of troops than you would ordinerily, if you don't have a massive population to start with this may be the difference between total victory and total defeat. If you lose the women are going to be either massacred or enslaved and that's the end of the tribe, if mobilizing women soldiers allows them to win then they won't have to worry about anything.

The Sarmatians did use female warriors, the romans faught them and lost, I don't think they'd have made it given how un-glorious that would make out the romans to be if they lose to girls. Whether the Sarmatians regularly fielded female warriors or whether they made the numbers calculation above when they learned about how deadly the Romans were and figured they needed as many people as they could field.

[Aismov]

Whether the Sarmatians regularly fielded female warriors or whether they made the numbers calculation above when they learned about how deadly the Romans were and figured they needed as many people as they could field.

Which is exactly why I think they shouldn't be in RTR. There is a very big difference between being forced to mobilize your entire adult population to help save the tribe, and routinely sending out all your young women on military expeditions.

EDIT: not to mention there is scant literary evidence for actual women warriors in battle. The majority of it comes from interpretation of burial sites where women skeletons have been found with weapons.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Evidence for Sarmatian female warriors

The Sarmatians did use female warriors, both historical accounts and archeological evidence bears it out.

The reason for this development has to do with the nomads style of warfare which involved heavy use of horsemen and horse archers, which actually makes females more viable as warriors than in traditional mass infantry slog armies like most civilized and barbarian armies. Actually the female warrior may have some advantages beacause women weigh less than males meaning that female horse riders could actually be slightly more agile than their male counterparts.

The verdict of history is on my side, female warriors should be in the game.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Two more possible Sarmatian units.

Sarmatian warrior priestesses.
Sarmatian Cataphracts.


Please don't double post! Thank you - Trajan

EDIT: not to mention there is scant literary evidence for actual women warriors in battle. The majority of it comes from interpretation of burial sites where women skeletons have been found with weapons.

And with injuries that are reminiscent of warriors, arrow wounds and the like. And the greeks appear to support the idea of Scythian/Sarmatians using female warriors and they trace it back to their legendary amazon ancesters. There is more than enough evidence.

[Boudicca]

We still need more variety for Sarmatians. That is for sure. They could be an interesting faction if having a broader unit base! So who is going to go on the job after Attilas leave! Any volunteers?

[LordSaradain]

We still need more variety for Sarmatians. That is for sure. They could be an interesting faction if having a broader unit base!

The sarmatians do need more varied units types. I'd suggest giving them a cheap light lancer cavalry unit which could be recruited almost immediatly. They need some more heavy/elite horsemen and prehaps a unit of light cavalry women. They should also have some weak infantry support.
I think that the sarmatian faction should be re-vamped so that sarmatian cavalry units are much cheaper than other factions cavalry but on the other hand their infantry should be alot more expensive to recruit. If a sarmatian plkayer wants to rely on infantry he will have to do with mercenaries and AoR which is as it should be.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

But the Sarmations most likely did not create seperate units, a "men's unit" and a "women's unit." In all likelihood they were mixed together. This is where the problem with Rome is, every man in a unit has to be identical. If there were some way to use the regular unit, with 20-30% of the models replaced by a female model, then that would be perfect.

I'm not sure how much the Sarmatians used "units" as such in reality, most likely they faught in loose formations of individual warriors which probably were formed along the lines of personal loyalties probably around a particularly renowned veteran. So it's feasable that female warriors would assosiate mainly with other female warriors and hence a female warrior unit would be formed.

You suggested doing 2 of each kind of unit, but how would you like to fight a battle, lose a good amount of both, and then not be able to combine them? Because as far as the game is concerned, they are not the same unit at all.

Why wouldn't you simply deploy them together and give them the same orders until you could retrain them?

The sarmatians do need more varied units types. I'd suggest giving them a cheap light lancer cavalry unit which could be recruited almost immediatly. They need some more heavy/elite horsemen and prehaps a unit of light cavalry women. They should also have some weak infantry support.

The Sarmatian catephracts would be the heavy cavalry, these should be a male unit beacause of the need to wear heavy armour and carry heavy weapons. The foot soldiers should consist of basic and fairly weak spearmen, no match for the spearmen of any other civilization in a prolonged battle and hence the Sarmatian player would be forced to rely on cavalry charges to destroy his foe once he'd pinned them in place with his spearmen, else they would quite quickly die. They could also include basic unarmoured axemen aswell, these troops being suitably lousy to leave them dependant on cavarly support.
The axemen and the spearmen should consist of males, the reasoning bieng that they need strength and bulk in order to fight in standing close combat with the enemies.

The skirmishers and foot archers should come in both male and female units.

The horse archers should come in both male and female basic units, however an elite horse archer unit should be reserved for females.

The light lancers too should come in both male and female units, the male units have more attack, but the female units should be more agile and also have more effect on enemy morale than the male versions against non-Sarmatian units (due to the unease of other civilizations at fighting women).

[the_mango55]

But the Sarmations most likely did not create seperate units, a "men's unit" and a "women's unit." In all likelihood they were mixed together. This is where the problem with Rome is, every man in a unit has to be identical. If there were some way to use the regular unit, with 20-30% of the models replaced by a female model, then that would be perfect.

You suggested doing 2 of each kind of unit, but how would you like to fight a battle, lose a good amount of both, and then not be able to combine them? Because as far as the game is concerned, they are not the same unit at all.

If someone does a Rome mod for MTW2 then this will be possible, with the soldier randomization they are going to have in MTW2