Hand held gun powder weapons.

[JackDionne]

Concerning hand held gunpowder weapons for the period of Shogun II and a relative comparison of the hand held gunpowder weapons of the Napoleonic era, what would the major difference be?

In reload time for an average soldier?

In range, how far they would be considered effective?

How would a rainy day affect performance?

It’s common knowledge how they were employed in the Napoleonic era, was it the same for the Shogun II period?

Was there only one type of hand held gunpowder weapon?

What type of soldier was issued the weapon, just anybody or a person who was considered Samurai or would it depend on what clan was using them?

Thanks in advance.

[micheljq]

I don't really know but Napoleon era is like 250 years later the era of Shogun 2 if I am not mistaken. Shogun 2 happens in 1550-1600 right?

[clibinarium]

First western guns arrived in 1543 and spread relatively quickly, gaining more importance as the century went on. By the time of the Korean campaigns (1590s) for instance there was a letter sent back to Japan by a commander stating "send more guns; spears are of no use". That is not to say the gun dominated later battles completely, but it was an important part of any army by the end of the period.

The matchlock was the type of gun used in Japan (and in Europe until the late 17th century), the Napoleonic weapon being the flintlock.

More info;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan

[JackDionne]

First western guns arrived in 1543 and spread relatively quickly, gaining more importance as the century went on. By the time of the Korean campaigns (1590s) for instance there was a letter sent back to Japan by a commander stating "send more guns; spears are of no use". That is not to say the gun dominated later battles completely, but it was an important part of any army by the end of the period.

The matchlock was the type of gun used in Japan (and in Europe until the late 17th century), the Napoleonic weapon being the flintlock.

More info;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_of_Japan

That's some great info.

[american samurai]

Concerning hand held gunpowder weapons for the period of Shogun II and a relative comparison of the hand held gunpowder weapons of the Napoleonic era, what would the major difference be?

In reload time for an average soldier?

In range, how far they would be considered effective?

How would a rainy day affect performance?

It’s common knowledge how they were employed in the Napoleonic era, was it the same for the Shogun II period?

Was there only one type of hand held gunpowder weapon?

What type of soldier was issued the weapon, just anybody or a person who was considered Samurai or would it depend on what clan was using them?

Thanks in advance.

Check out this thread. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=419819 A couple of answers...Rain affected the use of these weapons of course, this led to the the Japanese developing a rain cover, I posted a drawing of it in use. As for who would use "tanegashima", Both samurai and foot soldiers "ashigaru" would use these firearms. It is my understanding that samurai would use these individually and ashigaru would use then in trained coordinated groups. The ashigaru would have a samurai overseer to train the ashigaru. I have posted a picture of this.







A group of ashigaru using "tanegashima". The Ashigaru are wearing "mino" rain capes and they have some sort of rain cover over the firing mechanism, it looks like streaks of rain are coming down.



A group of "ashigaru" being trained by a samurai (note the 2 swords the trainer wears, the sign of a samurai) The ashigaru are well armored and are using ropes attached to their "tanegashima" to teach the ashigaru how to fire at the proper level.

[JackDionne]

Check out this thread. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=419819 A couple of answers...Rain affected the use of these weapons of course, this led to the the Japanese developing a rain cover, I posted a drawing of it in use. As for who would use "tanegashima", Both samurai and foot soldiers "ashigaru" would use these firearms. It is my understanding that samurai would use these individually and ashigaru would use then in trained coordinated groups. The ashigaru would have a samurai overseer to train the ashigaru. I have posted a picture of this.







A group of ashigaru using "tanegashima". The Ashigaru are wearing "mino" rain capes and they have some sort of rain cover over the firing mechanism, it looks like streaks of rain are coming down.



A group of "ashigaru" being trained by a samurai (note the 2 swords the trainer wears, the sign of a samurai) The ashigaru are well armored and are using ropes attached to their "tanegashima" to teach the ashigaru how to fire at the proper level.

Not sure about the rope. The weapon was not intended to be but up to the shoulder?

[Juggernaut]

In addition, a Teppou Ashigaru unit would usually be 20~50 men strong. For example, the Teppou Ashigaru of Ishiyama Hongan-ji was a 50 men unit, comprised of two 25 men platoon. Sources for other Daimyous generally seems to follow the same pattern. By late period, various types of firing drills were used. A common drill seems to have been the Tsurube-uchi(literally "continuous fire"). Basically, this was a drill where one unit would fire wile the other would reload, to present a continuous fire. For example, the Uesugi clan's military regulation during the Osaka siege instructs that only 1/3 of the Teppou units should be firing at one time, and put a forbid on volley fire, although it also instructed that the captain should be flexible in his decision, and use volley fire if the situation demands it.

[Juggernaut]

Not sure about the rope. The weapon was not intended to be but up to the shoulder?

Actually, the cheeks. Japanese arquebus lacked a stock, so the only way to stabilize it was to push the butt end to the cheeks.
See the images below.

http://travelab.jp/news/img/TikiNews...-K002/main.jpg
http://photo4071.img.jugem.jp/20100105_704203.jpg
http://www.good-l.net/shop/21/3j3Jta...8l87I5Jnig.jpg

[JackDionne]

Actually, the cheeks. Japanese arquebus lacked a stock, so the only way to stabilize it was to push the butt end to the cheeks.
See the images below.

http://travelab.jp/news/img/TikiNews...-K002/main.jpg
http://photo4071.img.jugem.jp/20100105_704203.jpg
http://www.good-l.net/shop/21/3j3Jta...8l87I5Jnig.jpg

Awesome pictures!

Thanks.

[Wundai]

Damn..truly a walking encyclopedia

[$NeDKeLLy$]

Damn..truly a walking encyclopedia

Yea im learning heaps here

[american samurai]

Here is a picture of a rarely seen part of a tanegashima, the threaded bolt at the end of the barrel. Being a matchlock there needed to be a way to clean the barrel. The barrel was made to be removed from the stock and there is a threaded bold called a "bizen" screwed into the end of the barrel. By removing the barrel from the stock and unscrewing the bizen you can clean the barrel.

There is an excellent book called ''Tanegashima The Arrival of Europe in Japan" by Olof G Lindin. In his book Lindin makes a point of noting that the lord of the island were the Portuguese first landed (Lord Tanegashima Tokitaka) in 1543 appointed a local sword smith (Yaita) the task of replicating the 1 or 2 Tanegashima which lord Tokitaka had purchased from the Portuguese. The smith yaita did not have much of a problem with most of the gun but "drilling the barrel helically so that the screw could be tightly inserted'' was a major problem as "This technique did apparently not exist in Japan until this time'' Lindin writes that the Portuguese fixed their ship and left the island and only in the next year when a Portuguese blacksmith was brought back to Japan was the problem solved.

Here are a couple of pictures of the end of the barrel and the bizen. Note the hole in the bizen used to insert a special tool for unscrewing the bizen if it is to tight. I had just removed the barrel from the stock of this tanegashima, probably the first time in this century. It took days of oiling and gently pulling the stock from the barrel to get them to separate. On the last picture you can see the signature "mei" of the blacksmith who made the barrel, signed in the same way a sword would have been signed.

[JackDionne]

Here is a picture of a rarely seen part of a tanegashima, the threaded bolt at the end of the barrel. Being a matchlock there needed to be a way to clean the barrel. The barrel was made to be removed from the stock and there is a threaded bold called a "bizen" screwed into the end of the barrel. By removing the barrel from the stock and unscrewing the bizen you can clean the barrel.

There is an excellent book called ''Tanegashima The Arrival of Europe in Japan" by Olof G Lindin. In his book Lindin makes a point of noting that the lord of the island were the Portuguese first landed (Lord Tanegashima Tokitaka) in 1543 appointed a local sword smith (Yaita) the task of replicating the 1 or 2 Tanegashima which lord Tokitaka had purchased from the Portuguese. The smith yaita did not have much of a problem with most of the gun but "drilling the barrel helically so that the screw could be tightly inserted'' was a major problem as "This technique did apparently not exist in Japan until this time'' Lindin writes that the Portuguese fixed their ship and left the island and only in the next year when a Portuguese blacksmith was brought back to Japan was the problem solved.

Here are a couple of pictures of the end of the barrel and the bizen. Note the hole in the bizen used to insert a special tool for unscrewing the bizen if it is to tight. I had just removed the barrel from the stock of this tanegashima, probably the first time in this century. It took days of oiling and gently pulling the stock from the barrel to get them to separate. On the last picture you can see the signature "mei" of the blacksmith who made the barrel, signed in the same way a sword would have been signed.

I am not allowed to give you more rep at this point, when I can I shall. Thanks for taking the time to educate me, (us)

[american samurai]

Here is a comment about this picture from someone who is actually in a Japanese gun troop and uses a tanegashima on a regular basis.

The picture above illustrates one of the ways of firing a gun firmly from the hip, and the rope or sash is used to hold the gun steady at a low height, a triangle being created by pulling up against the left foot. I had to do this in the Dojo as part of one of the Dan that I got. I don't remember anything about night firing, but that too is quite possible.

Another increased-accuracy position we had to be able to do was, in the kneeling position, using our upright sheathed Katana as a monopod, and holding the Tanegashima firmly onto the edge of the tsuba, all with the fingers of the left hand, and then doing the firing procedure. Try doing that on a slippery wooden Dojo floor without sliding the Saya, dropping the gun or letting it slip off the Tsuba, all in front of the judges!

[familyguy1]

Huge difference. Better comparison would be between the guns of this era in SII and the guns in this same era in Europe. Pretty much these were Arquebuses, right? Just different from what the Europeans produced.

[american samurai]

The tanegashima is a simple match lock, a burning cord ignites the powder in the pan and that ignites the powder in the barrel.

http://s831.photobucket.com/albums/z...ima/?start=all

[american samurai]

Thanks, just sharing and exchanging information and knowledge.

[klappspaten]

at the starting questions:

Till Japan was unified the importance of the matchlock became big, but it hadnt displaced bow and spear completely.
matchlock ratio was about:
-1540s: 1-100
-1550s: 1-20
-1560s: 1-5
-1570s: 1-1
-1580s: 2-1
-1590s: 4-1
-1600s: 10-1

A gun had efficient range of about 50 metres, a bow about the half. always keep in mind, that bushi wear heavy armoured warriors, which armours could withstand many attacks. in the hagakure (i know it's written way after the wars, but anyway) is written, that a warrior should be sure, that his breastplate could withstand bullets.

'Cause with the European matchlock came European armour, which (especially the breasplates) were adapted and used