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Thread: Viking Normandy

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Yet I have already pointed out quite clearly that 'Dacian' was a term used by the ecclesiastical community at the time for the Danes and often the Scandinavians as a whole. You know there is borough in the English county of Hertfordshire called Dacorum which means in Latin 'of the Danes' because during the late 11th century as there was a Danish community living in the area. It has nothing to do with Dacians or with a medieval Romanian elite which is what we should be describing such people, as 'Dacian' was rather an antiquated term for a people that had been conquered and absorbed by different invading groups from the 2nd century AD.
    And yet Dacians can also be found in Britain as Roman Legionnaires…! Mind you they were never at Hertfordshire and were talking about different time periods.

    “Dacian men were conscripted into auxiliary units and sent to Britannia or to the east.[14] Cohorts Primae Dacorum such as II Ulpia Dacorum and Aurelia Dacorum, were stationed in Pannonia.[6] Others served in Britannia: Alea Dacorum could be found at Deva (Chesters, UK) and Camboglanna, while cohort I Aelia Dacorum miliaria was based at Birdoswald.[6] The largest number of relics we have came from this cohors; one inscription portrays the sica, a unique Dacian weapon.[20]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Dacia

    Your argument Erebus is based on the obvious phonetic similarity between Danish “Dacia” and Romanian “Dacia”. Nevetheless… The confusion argument doesn’t actually hold any merit because it is very obvious what Dudo meant. Dudo was not confused in any way about which “Dacia” he meant in the text. He meant Eastern European “Dacia” and that happens to be a fact.

    Now the real obvious question is; why do you think that Dudo is wrong…?

    Consider the names of the early characters… Dudo the writer of the text… would be Dudu, Dudesti or Dudescu in Romanian. Dudo is not a Northern European name…Rollo the founder of the House of Normandy would be Roles in Getic and Rollins in Romanian. We also have the family name Rollins in Romania but it was more likely than not brought over by the Saxons although very rarely one sometimes encounters forms of Role. I only know one person with that name. However, when it comes to Rollo’s wife Popa I can not see the connection to any other people other than Romanians as Popa as a family name is not encountered under any form in Northern Europe. At least, I don’t personally know of any equivalent.

    Now I know what you’re going to say… “Phonetic similarities hold no merit!” AND yet what is the opposing argument for claiming that Dudo’s Dacians were actually “Danes”…? The fact that Denmark was also referred to as Dacia! Besides that the argument that Rollo was a “Viking” is pretty thin.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    The OP claimed that the Dacians claimed to have fought in the Trojan War and to be Greeks.
    Dacians were a branch of Thracians. Thracians were involved in Trojan War if I remember right.

    Anyway, in 1200 AD a band of Dacians travelled to Japan then founded the Tokugawa Clan. I'm sure it's written somewhere.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    Dacians were a branch of Thracians. Thracians were involved in Trojan War if I remember right.

    Anyway, in 1200 AD a band of Dacians travelled to Japan then founded the Tokugawa Clan. I'm sure it's written somewhere.
    Thank you for your contribution Civic! You may now have a cookie.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by CiviC View Post
    Dacians were a branch of Thracians. Thracians were involved in Trojan War if I remember right.

    Anyway, in 1200 AD a band of Dacians travelled to Japan then founded the Tokugawa Clan. I'm sure it's written somewhere.
    Still, it was the South Thracians who got involved a bit.
    The Dacians were far far away to have any commitment in this war.
    Under the patronage of Emperor Maximinus Thrax
    "Steps to be taken in case Russia should be forced out of war considered. Various movements [of ] troops to and from different fronts necessary to meeting possible contingencies discussed. Conference also weighed political, economic, and moral effect both upon Central and Allied powers under most unfavorable aspect from Allied point of view. General conclusions reached were necessity for adoption of purely defensive attitude on all secondary fronts and withdrawing surplus troops for duty on western front. By thus strengthening western front [those attending] believed Allies could hold until American forces arrive in numbers sufficient to gain ascendancy."
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  5. #25

    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by 0N3 View Post
    So am i just confused or... how many years are the moderator going to let this romanian conspiracy theory get threads on the forum?
    Even if you disagree with this I don't see the problem of discussing it. SORRY COMISAR COMRADE STALIN'S FURRY HAT BUT WE MUST COMMENCE FORTH.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Yet I have already pointed out quite clearly that 'Dacian' was a term used by the ecclesiastical community at the time for the Danes and often the Scandinavians as a whole. You know there is borough in the English county of Hertfordshire called Dacorum which means in Latin 'of the Danes' because during the late 11th century as there was a Danish community living in the area. It has nothing to do with Dacians or with a medieval Romanian elite which is what we should be describing such people, as 'Dacian' was rather an antiquated term for a people that had been conquered and absorbed by different invading groups from the 2nd century AD.
    That's what I said too but the issue however is that the Dacia described does not refer to the land of the Danes. It clearly speaks of the Carpathian mountains, the Black Sea and those around it. How is that? Also the term Dacia and the notion of Dacians did not fall out of use. Wasn't there a medieval ruler, I think Polish who wanted to rule Romania and called it "Dacia?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel I Komnenos View Post
    Still, it was the South Thracians who got involved a bit.
    The Dacians were far far away to have any commitment in this war.
    The Dacians provided the most amount of cavalry in the Thracian Kingdom IIRC. Who knows.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Getwulf View Post
    And yet Dacians can also be found in Britain as Roman Legionnaires…! Mind you they were never at Hertfordshire and were talking about different time periods.
    Yes 'Dacorum' is first mentioned during the late 11th century around the same time the Doomsday Book was compiled on the orders of William I.


    Quote Originally Posted by Getwulf View Post
    Your argument Erebus is based on the obvious phonetic similarity between Danish “Dacia” and Romanian “Dacia”. Nevetheless… The confusion argument doesn’t actually hold any merit because it is very obvious what Dudo meant. Dudo was not confused in any way about which “Dacia” he meant in the text. He meant Eastern European “Dacia” and that happens to be a fact.
    Although like I stated in earlier posts he doesn't actually discuss the geographical location of 'Dacia'(Chapter 2) in the same chapter as he discusses Rollo's enterprises against England and France (Chapter3)

    Quote Originally Posted by Getwulf View Post
    Now the real obvious question is; why do you think that Dudo is wrong…?

    Consider the names of the early characters… Dudo the writer of the text… would be Dudu, Dudesti or Dudescu in Romanian. Dudo is not a Northern European name…
    Granted the name Dudo does sound very similar to it's Romanian equivalents but I suppose that is hardly surprising considering the Latin influences in both languages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getwulf View Post
    Rollo the founder of the House of Normandy would be Roles in Getic and Rollins in Romanian. We also have the family name Rollins in Romania but it was more likely than not brought over by the Saxons although very rarely one sometimes encounters forms of Role. I only know one person with that name. However, when it comes to Rollo’s wife Popa I can not see the connection to any other people other than Romanians as Popa as a family name is not encountered under any form in Northern Europe. At least, I don’t personally know of any equivalent.
    I don't know - the names of Dacian kings Rholes and Oroles were given by Roman writers so I suppose this would be Latin forms of the names rather than what they would be in Getic. Rollo was a latin translation of a Scandinavian name. In Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum the Norse name Hrolfr is pronounced as Roluo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Getwulf View Post
    Now I know what you’re going to say… “Phonetic similarities hold no merit!” AND yet what is the opposing argument for claiming that Dudo’s Dacians were actually “Danes”…? The fact that Denmark was also referred to as Dacia! Besides that the argument that Rollo was a “Viking” is pretty thin.
    And yet there is nothing linking Rollo to medieval Romania. In fact there is nothing linking the Norse incursions on the channel coast of France to medieval Romania. Nobody knows for sure which Scandinavian country Rollo came from but he was clearly part of the 'Viking' raids and incursions that affected France, the British Isles and Northern France at that time.

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  7. #27

    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Although like I stated in earlier posts he doesn't actually discuss the geographical location of 'Dacia'(Chapter 2) in the same chapter as he discusses Rollo's enterprises against England and France (Chapter3)
    Yes, Rollo (a Dacian acording with the chronicle) apears in the next chapter, yet Dudo make clear about what Dacia is he talking, which is the real Dacia, as it was known since ancient times (today Romania, not Denmark). I wonder as well how that "confusion" apear, with Denmark being called Dacia, and why? Is not that peoples back then didnt know where the real Dacia was, and Denmark wasnt near this.

    So, the idea that the name was given after a group of warriors took refuge from Dacia to the northwest and give their name to a group of peoples and a place there is not that weird, as such thing happened all over Europe precisely in that era

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Granted the name Dudo does sound very similar to it's Romanian equivalents but I suppose that is hardly surprising considering the Latin influences in both languages.
    Dudo is quite close to another Dacian name, Dudas/Duda, found in inscriptions in province Dacia

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    I don't know - the names of Dacian kings Rholes and Oroles were given by Roman writers so I suppose this would be Latin forms of the names rather than what they would be in Getic. Rollo was a latin translation of a Scandinavian name. In Saxo Grammaticus' Gesta Danorum the Norse name Hrolfr is pronounced as Roluo.
    Well, i dont think the diference was too big, and the names was significant different. And from the link i posted i understand that in Normand Chronicle the name Hrolfr apear indeed, but is latinized as Rudolf/Rudolfus, and is separate names, not related with our personage Rollo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    And yet there is nothing linking Rollo to medieval Romania.
    Nothing except the Dudo Normand Chronicle.

    Similar, there is nothing relating the Goths migration from Scandinavia, except Jordanes legend. But Jordanes write about an event who happened (acording to him) some 2 milleniums before his time, yet Dudo talk about things who happened less then a century before him. I think Dudo was in position to know way much better and much more about what really happened, compared with Jordanes who probably made up much more of his story including the supposed Gothic migration from 1500 BC, supposedly still keep in the memories (not in writings !!!) of some peoples 2 mileniums after.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by diegis View Post
    Yes, Rollo (a Dacian acording with the chronicle) apears in the next chapter, yet Dudo make clear about what Dacia is he talking, which is the real Dacia, as it was known since ancient times (today Romania, not Denmark). I wonder as well how that "confusion" apear, with Denmark being called Dacia, and why? Is not that peoples back then didnt know where the real Dacia was, and Denmark wasnt near this.

    So, the idea that the name was given after a group of warriors took refuge from Dacia to the northwest and give their name to a group of peoples and a place there is not that weird, as such thing happened all over Europe precisely in that era
    Except that in the case of Denmark it is highly unlikely. The population of Denmark was made up of the peoples whoes ancestors were those inhabited that area in ancient times such as the Dani and the Jutes. There is not any evidence of any Romano-Dacians coming to Denmark at that time, so no it is not the same as the Anglo-Saxons coming to dominate England or the Franks France.

    As I've said Dacia was name given to Denmark and, at times, Scandinavia as a whole in ecclesiastical circles during the early medieval period but in other records such as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the Viking armies from Denmark are described as 'Danes'.


    Quote Originally Posted by diegis View Post
    Dudo is quite close to another Dacian name, Dudas/Duda, found in inscriptions in province Dacia
    As I've said it is probably the Latin influences in both languages.


    Quote Originally Posted by diegis View Post
    Well, i dont think the diference was too big, and the names was significant different. And from the link i posted i understand that in Normand Chronicle the name Hrolfr apear indeed, but is latinized as Rudolf/Rudolfus, and is separate names, not related with our personage Rollo.
    No Rudolf is a Germanic name.


    Quote Originally Posted by diegis View Post
    Nothing except the Dudo Normand Chronicle.

    Similar, there is nothing relating the Goths migration from Scandinavia, except Jordanes legend. But Jordanes write about an event who happened (acording to him) some 2 milleniums before his time, yet Dudo talk about things who happened less then a century before him. I think Dudo was in position to know way much better and much more about what really happened, compared with Jordanes who probably made up much more of his story including the supposed Gothic migration from 1500 BC, supposedly still keep in the memories (not in writings !!!) of some peoples 2 mileniums after.
    Except there is nothing that backs up anything that Dudo states regarding the Dacians (as in the ancient Romanians) invading Northern France from Scandinavia and laying the foundations of Normandy.

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  9. #29

    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    the vlachs... this primitive sheperds from balcan peninsula.
    what are you doing in dacia?
    lost your sheeps?
    drove out from balcan by the byzantines
    as kekaumenos said:
    "Neamul vlahilor este cu totul necredincios si spurcat, neavând credinta dreapta nici fata de Dumnezeu, nici fata de împarat, nici fata de ruda sau de prieten, ci umbla pe toti sa-i însele si minte strasnic si fura mult"
    with aproximation:
    "The race of Vlachs is totally unbelieving and dirty, with no right faith in God, not the emperor, or a friend or relative, but everyone walk to cheat and steal and lying terribly much"
    Free Székely Land! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kely_Land
    Autonomy for Transylvania!

  10. #30

    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by piroska View Post
    the vlachs... this primitive sheperds from balcan peninsula.
    what are you doing in dacia?
    lost your sheeps?
    drove out from balcan by the byzantines
    as kekaumenos said:
    "Neamul vlahilor este cu totul necredincios si spurcat, neavând credinta dreapta nici fata de Dumnezeu, nici fata de împarat, nici fata de ruda sau de prieten, ci umbla pe toti sa-i însele si minte strasnic si fura mult"
    with aproximation:
    "The race of Vlachs is totally unbelieving and dirty, with no right faith in God, not the emperor, or a friend or relative, but everyone walk to cheat and steal and lying terribly much"
    Your Romanianphobia is so funny, I bet you had a Romanian boyfriend who treated you badly.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    The best proof of heritage is universially considered to be that of similar language: So, does Norse Scandianvian bear any resemblance whatsoever to Dacian language? Enlighten me.

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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    dubblepost

  13. #33

    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by piroska View Post
    the vlachs... this primitive sheperds from balcan peninsula.
    what are you doing in dacia?
    lost your sheeps?
    drove out from balcan by the byzantines
    as kekaumenos said:
    "Neamul vlahilor este cu totul necredincios si spurcat, neavând credinta dreapta nici fata de Dumnezeu, nici fata de împarat, nici fata de ruda sau de prieten, ci umbla pe toti sa-i însele si minte strasnic si fura mult"
    with aproximation:
    "The race of Vlachs is totally unbelieving and dirty, with no right faith in God, not the emperor, or a friend or relative, but everyone walk to cheat and steal and lying terribly much"
    A passage in an 11th-century Byzantine document describing the events of the rebellion of 1066-1067 in the hinterland of Larissa (in Greece) may be the first account of the Vlachs, a generic term describing Romance populations, in Southeastern Europe.[6] Its author states that these Vlachs descended from the Dacians, and he implies a southward migration of these Vlachs. The document suggests that these Vlachs’ “homeland” used to lie south of the Danube, and it also mentions the Bessi (an ancient Thracian tribe living south of the Danube) among their ancestors.[7]
    They /the Vlachs/ were conquered by Emperor Trajan who had defeated and annihilated them. Their king, named Decebal, was killed (...). They are, in fact, the so-called Dacians and Bessi who used to live near the Danube and Sava rivers, where now the Serbs live, in inaccessible and inhospitable places (...)
    And they left the region: some of them spread to Epirus and Macedonia, although the majority of them settled in Hellas.
    —Kekaumenos (11th century): Strategikon[8]
    A 12th-century Byzantine chronicler, when describing the events of a Byzantine attack on Hungary, incidentally mentions that the Vlach recruits[6] is said to have descended from Italian settlers.[4]
    (...) Vlachs who are said to have descended from the one-time Italian settlers.
    —John Kinnamos (the second half of the 12th century): The Deeds of John and Manuel Comnenus[4]
    A 13th-century Flemish Franciscan missionary, in accordance with his conception concerning the origins of the Danube Bulgars from the Volga Bulgars, derives the Vlachs from a certain people (Illac / Ulac) living near the Bashkirs.[9]
    Neighboring the Pascatur are the Ulac (this is the same word as Blac, but the Tatars cannot pronounce ‘B’), and among them originated those who live in Assan’s territory: both the former and the latter are like known as the Ulac.
    —William of Rubruck (c. 1220-c. 1293): His Journey to the Court of the Great Khan Möngke, 1253-1255[10]
    A chronicle written in Hungary in the 1280s is the first source identifying the Vlachs with the “Romans’ shepherds” who were described as the inhabitants of Pannonia by earlier documents.[11]
    The citizens of Pannonia, Pamphylia, Macedonia, Dalmatia, and Phrygia, who had been exhausted by repeated raids and sieges from the Huns, having received permission from Attila quit their native soil and crossed the Adriatic Sea to Apulia; the Vlachs, however, who had been their shepherds and husbandmen, elected to remain behind in Pannonia.
    These Székely are in fact remnants of the Huns, and when they found out that the Magyars were returning to Pannonia, they came to meet them on the borders of Ruthenia (...). (...) this was not in the plains of Pannonia but in the mountains, which they shared with the Vlachs, mingling with them, it is said, and adopting their alphabet.
    —Simon of Kéza (13th century): The Deeds of the Hungarians[12]
    The Florentine humanist, Poggio Bracciolini (1380 - 1459) thought that the descendants of Emperor Trajan's settlers lived in the western part of Eastern Europe.[5] Aeneas Sylvius Piccolomini (1405 - 1464) supposed that the Romanians were the descendants of the Roman soldiers who had been sent to fight against the Dacians, and they had been named after their military leader, a certain Pomponius Flaccus.[5] Antonio Bonfini (1427/1434-1502), who lived in Hungary from 1486, wrote that the Romanians had descended from Trajan’s legionnaires.[5]
    Because the Romanians are descendants of the Romans, a fact that even today is attested by their language, a language that, even though they are surrounded by diverse barbarian peoples, could not be destroyed (...) even if all kinds of barbarian attacks flooded over the province of Dacia and the Roman people, we can see that the Roman colonies and legions that had been established there could not be annihilated.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literar..._the_Romanians

    Try some moar
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  14. #34
    Getwulf's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Except that in the case of Denmark it is highly unlikely. The population of Denmark was made up of the peoples whoes ancestors were those inhabited that area in ancient times such as the Dani and the Jutes. There is not any evidence of any Romano-Dacians coming to Denmark at that time, so no it is not the same as the Anglo-Saxons coming to dominate England or the Franks France.
    I think it all depends on what you mean by “Goth” and Dacians. According to Jordanes, Hrodhwulf was a Goth who traveled to the North but I don’t know enough about Denmark to make any comments on what their population is made up of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    Except there is nothing that backs up anything that Dudo states regarding the Dacians (as in the ancient Romanians) invading Northern France from Scandinavia and laying the foundations of Normandy.
    I’d be surprised if there was such a thing since Dudo mentions nothing like that. Rollo actually “invaded” Normandy/France from England.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erebus26 View Post
    And yet there is nothing linking Rollo to medieval Romania. In fact there is nothing linking the Norse incursions on the channel coast of France to medieval Romania. Nobody knows for sure which Scandinavian country Rollo came from but he was clearly part of the 'Viking' raids and incursions that affected France, the British Isles and Northern France at that time.
    Well there is the entire chronicle written by Dudo on which later chronicles are based but where the evidence about East Dacia was omitted. However, you’re right in the sense that we don’t know who Rollo would be if he did in fact come from Romania.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eirmar View Post
    The best proof of heritage is universially considered to be that of similar language: So, does Norse Scandianvian bear any resemblance whatsoever to Dacian language? Enlighten me.
    Wow… That is a terrible argument to make and doesn’t actually favor your position at all. As you can tell Normand French is pretty close to Romanian. I mean about as close to Romanian as Spanish and Portuguese but it isn’t exactly close to Norwegian. Also, I’m not exactly convinced that the best proof of heritage is language. As for Dacian being close to Scandinavian languages I have no idea because we don’t know what language the Dacians spoke. We know what language the Goths spoke who lived in Romania/Dacia around 4th C. AD but I’m not entirely sure where that fits into the argument.

    PS

    Try not to let Piroska or anyone else for that matter derail this thread…!
    Last edited by Getwulf; February 19, 2011 at 10:54 AM.

  15. #35

    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    There is as well some interesting info who wasnt presented here yet, but who can give some more clues.

    For ex. on the famous map of the world of Agrippa, made at Rome at the end of I century BC, Dacia is represented at having the north border on Baltic Sea and the western one on the river Vistula, so ocupying a big chunk of today Poland and having a conection with today Baltic states.

    Caesar and Strabo said too that Dacians are neighbours with Suebi/Germans in Hercynic Forest. Jordanes said that Dacians of Burebista and Deceneu burned the lands of Germans, lands who was in his time (VI century AD) possesed by Franks. Probably Dacians followed the Danube course to the springs and made a show of force who was understand by Suebi of Ariovist, since they turn around and go to Galia instead.

    It is possible so that in those new Dacian teritories (today Slovakia and Poland) Dacians to mingled at some point with some Germanic tribes. For ex. we have later there (around the Vistula) the Gotones (even if i dont think they are necessary the later Gots), we have a tribe called Dauciones in Scandia (or Denmark) on Ptolemy map and a tribe called Buri (south Poland) bearing the name of a Dacian tribe also called Buri, who had their capital mentioned by Ptolemy as Buri-dava but south of Carpathians in Romania).

    It is thus possible that Normand Chronicle mix up some facts, and tell the story of a guy called Rollo (most probable a late latinization of Roles or Oroles, dacian names), who is need to run after his father lost his lands to the king of Dacia, but that happened centuries before. This king might be Burebista himself, who make an unification of all Dacian tribes, scholars said sometimes by force, sometimes peacefuly.

    So, one group of warriors and a prince for some of those tribes might seek refuge after was defeated, and since Dacia borders was on Baltic Sea and Vistula, they sailed to Denmark or so, and their story was passed from generation to generation, until a new guy, caled as well Rollo emerge from there, in Dudo times, and the old story mix with his one.

    Dacians tribes or warrior groups who imposed themselves in the area gived their names to some possible new peoples, maybe a mix of Dacians and Germanics, as well to the teritory of Denmark who was called Dacia after Dudo story i think and who might say actualy a truth, about some rogue Dacian groups who established themselves in north in I century BC, refusing to obey to the new king, the first and biggest of all Thracians, as was called Burebista.

    Burebista himself it was said that probably was from the Dacian Buri tribe, so very possible that warriors from that tribe was with him in his expeditions to center and north of Europe and some of them was based in those teritories, giving birth to a new Buri tribe
    Last edited by diegis; March 01, 2011 at 06:13 AM.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    lol, diegis that's absurd.

    a) You rely on Aggrippa's map and understanding of tribal territory (which almost certainly was poorly defined) being accurate.
    b) Tribal names frequently appear twice in distant locations from each other - this should not be taken as necessarily meaning the same groups
    c) Rolo comes from North Germanic - Hrolfr, or Rolf in its anglicised form. Rolou in the Gesta Danorum of the same North Germanic name. It has nothing to do with the Dacian language or proper nouns.

    Cut the nationalistic fantasies. We have an alt history forum for this sort of nonsense.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by diegis View Post
    There is as well some interesting info who wasnt presented here yet, but who can give some more clues.

    For ex. on the famous map of the world of Agrippa, made at Rome at the end of I century BC, Dacia is represented at having the north border on Baltic Sea and the western one on the river Vistula, so ocupying a big chunk of today Poland and having a conection with today Baltic states.

    Caesar and Strabo said too that Dacians are neighbours with Suebi/Germans in Hercynic Forest. Jordanes said that Dacians of Burebista and Deceneu burned the lands of Germans, lands who was in his time (VI century AD) possesed by Franks. Probably Dacians followed the Danube course to the springs and made a show of force who was understand by Suebi of Ariovist, since they turn around and go to Galia instead.

    It is possible so that in those new Dacian teritories (today Slovakia and Poland) Dacians to mingled at some point with some Germanic tribes. For ex. we have later there (around the Vistula) the Gotones (even if i dont think they are necessary the later Gots), we have a tribe called Dauciones in Scandia (or Denmark) on Ptolemy map and a tribe called Buri (south Poland) bearing the name of a Dacian tribe also called Buri, who had their capital mentioned by Ptolemy as Buri-dava but south of Carpathians in Romania).

    It is thus possible that Normand Chronicle mix up some facts, and tell the story of a guy called Rollo (most probable a late latinization of Roles or Oroles, dacian names), who is need to run after his father lost his lands to the king of Dacia, but that happened centuries before. This king might be Burebista himself, who make an unification of all Dacian tribes, scholars said sometimes by force, sometimes peacefuly.

    So, one group of warriors and a prince for some of those tribes might seek refuge after was defeated, and since Dacia borders was on Baltic Sea and Vistula, they sailed to Denmark or so, and their story was passed from generation to generation, until a new guy, caled as well Rollo emerge from there, in Dudo times, and the old story mix with his one.

    Dacians tribes or warrior groups who imposed themselves in the area gived their names to some possible new peoples, maybe a mix of Dacians and Germanics, as well to the teritory of Denmark who was called Dacia after Dudo story i think and who might say actualy a truth, about some rogue Dacian groups who established themselves in north in I century BC, refusing to obey to the new king, the first and biggest of all Thracians, as was called Burebista.

    Burebista himself it was said that probably was from the Dacian Buri tribe, so very possible that warriors from that tribe was with him in his expeditions to center and north of Europe and some of them was based in those teritories, giving birth to a new Buri tribe
    As Ferrets said, could we cut the ridicoulus nationalist wetdreams? This is just absurd.

  18. #38
    Getwulf's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    c) Rolo comes from North Germanic - Hrolfr, or Rolf in its anglicised form. Rolou in the Gesta Danorum of the same North Germanic name. It has nothing to do with the Dacian language or proper nouns.

    Cut the nationalistic fantasies. We have an alt history forum for this sort of nonsense.
    You can't just pick whatever evidence suits you. The Gesta Normannorum is really the most important document on the subject of the Normands and yet most of the things in it are left out because it tells a completely different story than what is believed today.

    I'm not sure what nationalist fantasies you're referring to...?

    It is a FACT that Dudo the Normand chronicler stated that Rollo the Dacian came from Romanian “Dacia”.

    I’ll agree with you that Diegis is speculating on some matters that we just don’t know but I don’t see any evidence of nationalist fantasies.

    As for the name Rollo you can have lots of different interpretations... It doesn't prove a Danish origin since Getic Roles (or Deutsch/German "Rolfes") is an equally good candidate and in fact a lot closer than Hrolf.

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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Getwulf View Post
    You can't just pick whatever evidence suits you. The Gesta Normannorum is really the most important document on the subject of the Normands and yet most of the things in it are left out because it tells a completely different story than what is believed today.

    I'm not sure what nationalist fantasies you're referring to...?

    It is a FACT that Dudo the Normand chronicler stated that Rollo the Dacian came from Romanian “Dacia”.

    I’ll agree with you that Diegis is speculating on some matters that we just don’t know but I don’t see any evidence of nationalist fantasies.

    As for the name Rollo you can have lots of different interpretations... It doesn't prove a Danish origin since Getic Roles (or Deutsch/German "Rolfes") is an equally good candidate and in fact a lot closer than Hrolf.
    Wait, so you're suggesting the Normans, those VIKINGS, would not have come from North Germanic language speakers?

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Viking Normandy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Wait, so you're suggesting the Normans, those VIKINGS, would not have come from North Germanic language speakers?
    I think your main confusion comes from the fact that you're not familiar with Dudo's text. I've been studying it for some time.

    You're also not too familiar with 8-9th C. AD Romania... then again who is...? Pointing out that from about the 1st C AD onwards Romania was a Gothic country and in that sense it was also "North German" might mean a lot to this argument. But that would mean that I would have to accept that the Goths came from "North Germany" in the 1st C. AD. A fact that is blatantly false!

    Dudo's text quite clearly tells us that they were "Goths" or Getae from Dacia!!!...

    So the Normands may very well have been early "East Germanic"/Gothic speakers... but they were definetely not "Norse" speakers...

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    FACTS

    Rollo invaded France with 12 boats of Anglo-Saxons given to him by king Alstem of East Anglia... and 6 boats of his own Dacians. He invaded from East Anglia...!
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So... What Vikings...?

    To make matters worse there was a "Viking" presence in Normandy but it didn't have anything to do with Rollo.

    The supporters of the Viking argument use "confusion" to obscure the facts and curve fitting to fit their own version of events. Events that just aren't supported by Dudo's text!
    Last edited by Getwulf; March 01, 2011 at 11:51 AM.

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