Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 60

Thread: The REAL human problem: SELF

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default The REAL human problem: SELF

    Hi all,

    I was just contemplating this and have only reinforced what I believe, that SELF is the human problem.

    The death of self in each person is the correction of the human state, as it now selfishly, is.

    This is not to say that people don't do altruistic things but this is not a norm and typically there is a sub-conscious reason as to why a deed is done.

    We clearly have to address this issue daily as we see the once "distant" places of the world leap out to us via internet, t.v., radio (if anyone listens to it anymore!), etc.

    The crux of the matter on this issue is: What IS self? static or dynamic?

    Verbalization of an answer is not the same as the application of an answer nor is it the actual work done to/on one's self to fix the problem either. Evident enough.

    Thanks,
    hellas1

  2. #2
    Nimthill's Avatar Biarchus
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    624

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    Hi all,

    I was just contemplating this and have only reinforced what I believe, that SELF is the human problem.

    The death of self in each person is the correction of the human state, as it now selfishly, is.

    This is not to say that people don't do altruistic things but this is not a norm and typically there is a sub-conscious reason as to why a deed is done.

    We clearly have to address this issue daily as we see the once "distant" places of the world leap out to us via internet, t.v., radio (if anyone listens to it anymore!), etc.

    The crux of the matter on this issue is: What IS self? static or dynamic?

    Verbalization of an answer is not the same as the application of an answer nor is it the actual work done to/on one's self to fix the problem either. Evident enough.

    Thanks,
    hellas1
    In order for this thread to work, you're going to have to explain to us the question you're asking us:

    What do you mean by 'Self"?
    For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    @Nimthill,

    Thanks for sparking it up!

    Self, in it's ultimate meaning, is a state of consciousness in which the I is the exclusive center.

    Ex. Selfish thinking, Selfish willing, Selfish BE-ing, etc.

    hellas1

  4. #4

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    I think the problem is conformism. Individuals are taught from birth that they have to fit in with society and if they don't they are considered "weird" and are shunned. If we teach kids to be themselves they won't have to worry too much about themselves and instead focus more on other people.

  5. #5
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Well of course the self is dynamic. You drink 10 glasses of whiskey, you have fundamentally altered your state, afterwards you have the experience of it (usually regret) and that experience stays with you forever. It has and the actions you took under the influence built up levels of association and affirmations and various other things that cumulatively build up your consciousness over time. This to a certain extent is responsible for the colloquialism 'set in your ways' and in NLP you discuss the presence and manipulation of anchors. These are events that have attached meaning in your life and the repetition of those events can trigger emotional states in an almost pavlovian state.

    So I think it is relatively clear that the self is dynamic with even a basic level of understanding of the psychological make up of consciousness.

    Now that I've established the dynamic nature of consciousness I think it is worth discussing the conceptual nature of the idea of 'self' and how most people relate to it. I don't think it is true to say that people tie the self to consciousness as tightly as they should. Instead throughout their life people have a transitional notion of self that is rooted to their perceptions of the world. Those perceptions are filtered through a haze of presuppositions about what things are and what they mean in relation to them. So you can have someone with a very negative attitude because everything he does is filtered through presuppositions that these events mean bad things for him. Or you can have someone who steals because in their mind that is the best way to make them happy, they have limited options because of their presuppositions. People join movements and causes, they believe strange things and adhere to movements or preconceived notions of what they are (ie. raised in a religion) because it is a fundamental part of what they consider to be them. A persons perception of who they are, of their 'self' is, is the amalgamation of experience relative to what they understand of the world based on other experiences. This is not the same thing as consciousness but is an idea in peoples heads which affects their interactions with others. Of course we can't exist without both consciousness and an idea of who we are and where we are going, this is part of being a human being.

    That doesn't mean that you can't alter your notions of self, or become aware of the fact that it is just an idea which immediately changes how you interact with the world. I have already discussed the fact that NLP specifically is concerned with altering presuppositions, changing anchors and mitigating experiences that changes the way we perceive things and events. What I haven't mentioned and I suspect this thread is aimed at is what buddhism offers around the notion of self. I don't think I'd be to far off the mark to say I've already adequately described Buddhisms position but what effects does Buddhism have on it?

    Well Deep hypnosis and meditation deeply affect our ideas of self and what automated evaluations of our self in relation to the world and incoming information will do.

    I read one piece of work that came up with a term , all of the things I describe above about our perceptions, preconceptions and notions of self effect us as being the Cognitive Reality Orientation. I'm going to paraphrase some of the explanations here: All the knowledge about how things ordinarily should be that is instantly ready to inform and condition our perceptions, thoughts and feelings. This largely automated evaluative activity pervades consensus consciousness. As the CRO becomes relatively inactive a suggestion to a deeply hypnotised person is percieved in isolation, as it were, rather than automatically evaluated and devalued as it might be in consensus consciousness.

    But hypnosis and meditation are similar but subtly and grandly different and I've been trying to come to some notion of those differences and how they affect us. I know I'm rambling but try and keep up I might even say something interesting!

    Our CRO is active in all waking moments, particularly in the west with so much information available and mental stimulation it is entirely possible and probably that every waking moment of the day is filled with some kind of information stimulus. One common meditation practice is to sit quietly and concentrate. This shuts down the flow of information coming in and can be quite discomforting at first. But it allows some form of processing of our perceptions, allows repetitive thoughts to surface and be processed into long term memory and like hypnosis causes the constant automotive evaluation to fade. There are generally considered eight states in this form of meditation:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    8th Jhana Neither perception nor nonperception; equanimity and onepointedness

    7th Jhana Awareness of no-thingness; equanimity and one-pointedness

    6th Jhana Objectless infinite consciousness, equanimity and onepointedness

    5th Jhana Consciousness of infinite space; equanimity and onepointedness **

    4th Jhana Equanimity and one-pointedness; bless; all feelings of bodily pleasure cease

    3rd Jhana Feelings of bliss, one-pointedness and equanimity; rapture ceases

    2nd Jhana Feelings of rapture, bliss, one-pointedness; no thought of primary object of concentration


    1Jhana Hindering thoughts, sensory perception, and awareness of painful bodily states all cease; initial and unbroken sustained attention to primary object of concentration; feelings of rapture, bliss and one-pointedness

    Access State - Hindering thoughts overcome, other thoughts remain; awareness of sensory inputs and body states; primary object of concentration dominate thought; feelings of rapture, happiness, *equanimity; initial and sustained thoughts of primary object; flashes of light or bodily lightness*


    *Incidentally easily explainable phenomenon that causes most beginners to think they are experiencing mystical experiences.

    ** I was listening to a skeptical podcast a while back and a specialist in neurology had the interesting experience of having a stroke and being totally conscious throughout it all, some curious events in her brain rather than being distressing created the feelings one would usually associate with the fantastic claims made about meditation. I can't remember all the details but the comparison bears some analysis I feel.

    I do believe some of the ideas that float around our CRO bear a good resemblance to the idea of PTSD, ideas float around in our short term memory that distress, embarrass or upset or you know anything else that could effect you. The act of quieting meditation allows you to file those away into long term memory so you become a more reactive consciousness that responds to reality as opposed to interpretation of reality that have been filtered through your automated response mechanisms to subtly change their memory in a way that is less objective based on previous events. Objectivity in emotional or difficult situations is generally considered to be more desirable because it leads to a reduction in stress and anxiety.

    There are also theories that it affects the sympathetic and parasympathetic system to alter anxiety levels and preconditioned responses like anger or stress, as well as other theories about the amydula and prefrontal cortex and the relationship of these to how you make decisions and how your body reacts to stimuli.

    There is another form of meditation that I would be remiss in not mentioning and that is insight meditation. This is quiet focused contemplation that escalates into something different. Where you can focus thought without interruption or digression. The beginner frequently starts with becoming more mindful of his surroundings and of his physicality, his consciousness and his own state of mind. The next stage is one of reflection which is where it can be problematic as it is not always pleasant. Passing these stages is however pleasant and this is where something akin to inner peace is found as you become more equanamicable towards impermenance and other ideas that have been troubling you and finally more troubling insights and acceptance of impermanence which leads into something akin to the 7 step grief process before acceptance hits and at this point theoretically suffering ends as things become so easy to accept. Maybe akin to being permanently blasting heroin

    The differences in these two ways in which we access and manipulate our notion of self are in my opinion as follows. That we become hypnotised or self hypnotised to organise our thoughts, to manipulate and implant or remove things in our automatic responses to create beneficial changes. To do this we quite and push aside our CRO. In meditation in both forms we manipulate our physical bodies somewhat as well as diminishing the CRO to the point where it stops (or near as dammit) allowing us to shed all of our excess baggage to a point where it can be evaluated objectively and the sum of our experiences are not purely what we are. There are reports of states of pure awareness where there is nothing but awareness, no evaluation. The effects afterwards are described as huge and positive, like resetting a computer when you are getting lots of BSoDs, and defragmenting a Hard Drive.

    This could be what Nibbana is, an altered state of consciousness that we have mentally and physically acheived through practice.

    PS: I've used a lot of my own thoughts as well as about 5 bodies of text to put these thoughts down with one in particular being very helpful and dominant in here though it makes for some heavy long reading. If anyone is interested in the text send me a PM and I'll gladly share them.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    Hi all,

    I was just contemplating this and have only reinforced what I believe, that SELF is the human problem.

    The death of self in each person is the correction of the human state, as it now selfishly, is.

    This is not to say that people don't do altruistic things but this is not a norm and typically there is a sub-conscious reason as to why a deed is done.

    We clearly have to address this issue daily as we see the once "distant" places of the world leap out to us via internet, t.v., radio (if anyone listens to it anymore!), etc.

    The crux of the matter on this issue is: What IS self? static or dynamic?

    Verbalization of an answer is not the same as the application of an answer nor is it the actual work done to/on one's self to fix the problem either. Evident enough.

    Thanks,
    hellas1

  7. #7
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by ᚹᛟᛞᚨᚾ View Post
    I don't get it, questions of the self are legitimate philosophical inquiries, what's your beef?

  8. #8

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Hi everyone,

    One cannot receive an intellectually believable understanding of a question without using language.

    Please concede to this, at least on a human level.

    Thanks


    Now,

    Being a hypnotherapist through a guild, I can say the the types of consciousness that a person can have are interesting. The obvious being gross states (drunkenness, over indulgences of ALL sorts, etc.) and the less obvious subtle states.

    Besides Denny Crane talking about NLP, Neuro-Linguistic Programming for those of you who don't know what it is, we do have various forms of meditation, which are all geared towards different ends: Allah, Nibbana, "Self integration", Unification with Brahman, Unfolding the Christos/Christ within, etc.

    Buddhism's stance on meditation, so many years after the Buddha's death & subsequent watering down &/or syncretization of what I believe to be "Original Buddhism, what the Buddha had actually said" does NOT help in the actual understanding of what Buddha taught.

    The same is true for the Jain meditation system, as it exists today.

    What I say, in tandem with the Buddhists of today is this:
    There is Sutra practice, which deals with the breath, cultivating skillful mind qualities, death contemplation, 12 co-dependent links of existence, etc.

    There is Mahayana practice dealing with 6 paramitas, being a bodhisattva, etc.

    There is Tantric practice, where the Chakras, Bindhu, Channels and Prana are all integrated and a Deity, wrathful or peaceful, is used in an alchemical way.

    There is Dzogchen, which is "Naked Awareness." This form of "meditation is what teacher/philosopher
    Jiddhu Krishnamurti called "Choiceless Awareness." In this state, not a "sit down meditation" per se, a person just watches his/her emotions, thoughts, judgements and wanderings of the mind with emotional detachment, because the emotions bias/color one's judgment and conclusions about everything.

    To me, Dzogchen is the best tool we have for understanding self and how it manifests.

    Cheers
    hellas1

  9. #9
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    Hi everyone,

    One cannot receive an intellectually believable understanding of a question without using language.

    Please concede to this, at least on a human level.

    Thanks


    Now,

    Being a hypnotherapist through a guild, I can say the the types of consciousness that a person can have are interesting. The obvious being gross states (drunkenness, over indulgences of ALL sorts, etc.) and the less obvious subtle states.
    Which guild? If you wish to state credentials to establish credulity I expect some kind of source, name and organisation please.

    Otherwise I call BS. Not out of particular vehemence though I do distrust you admittedly, but anyone prostituting their position n here to add credibility needs to back it up or I'll call them out, so your name and organisation that I can check up or I will continue this until I get satisfaction or a retraction.



    Buddhism's stance on meditation, so many years after the Buddha's death & subsequent watering down &/or syncretization of what I believe to be "Original Buddhism, what the Buddha had actually said" does NOT help in the actual understanding of what Buddha taught.
    Is this even relevant? Hellas you've got problems pal, you see my name you see the reason to exhort your opinon and your demagogy about purist buddhism.

    The same is true for the Jain meditation system, as it exists today.

    What I say, in tandem with the Buddhists of today is this:
    There is Sutra practice, which deals with the breath, cultivating skillful mind qualities, death contemplation, 12 co-dependent links of existence, etc.

    There is Mahayana practice dealing with 6 paramitas, being a bodhisattva, etc.

    There is Tantric practice, where the Chakras, Bindhu, Channels and Prana are all integrated and a Deity, wrathful or peaceful, is used in an alchemical way.

    There is Dzogchen, which is "Naked Awareness." This form of "meditation is what teacher/philosopher
    Jiddhu Krishnamurti called "Choiceless Awareness." In this state, not a "sit down meditation" per se, a person just watches his/her emotions, thoughts, judgements and wanderings of the mind with emotional detachment, because the emotions bias/color one's judgment and conclusions about everything.

    To me, Dzogchen is the best tool we have for understanding self and how it manifests.

    Cheers
    hellas1
    Something which you might care to relate to the topic or not?

    Ho hum, I put a reasonable hour into the last post and the only post I get after two days is this.... maybe this should tell me something however negative the connotations.
    Last edited by Denny Crane!; February 15, 2011 at 09:53 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    @Denny Crane,

    My post is in relation to this:

    Quote:
    "8th Jhana Neither perception nor nonperception; equanimity and onepointedness

    7th Jhana Awareness of no-thingness; equanimity and one-pointedness

    6th Jhana Objectless infinite consciousness, equanimity and onepointedness

    5th Jhana Consciousness of infinite space; equanimity and onepointedness **

    4th Jhana Equanimity and one-pointedness; bless; all feelings of bodily pleasure cease

    3rd Jhana Feelings of bliss, one-pointedness and equanimity; rapture ceases

    2nd Jhana Feelings of rapture, bliss, one-pointedness; no thought of primary object of concentration


    1Jhana Hindering thoughts, sensory perception, and awareness of painful bodily states all cease; initial and unbroken sustained attention to primary object of concentration; feelings of rapture, bliss and one-pointedness

    Access State - Hindering thoughts overcome, other thoughts remain; awareness of sensory inputs and body states; primary object of concentration dominate thought; feelings of rapture, happiness, *equanimity; initial and sustained thoughts of primary object; flashes of light or bodily lightness*


    *Incidentally easily explainable phenomenon that causes most beginners to think they are experiencing mystical experiences.

    ** I was listening to a skeptical podcast a while back and a specialist in neurology had the interesting experience of having a stroke and being totally conscious throughout it all, some curious events in her brain rather than being distressing created the feelings one would usually associate with the fantastic claims made about meditation. I can't remember all the details but the comparison bears some analysis I feel.

    I do believe some of the ideas that float around our CRO bear a good resemblance to the idea of PTSD, ideas float around in our short term memory that distress, embarrass or upset or you know anything else that could effect you. The act of quieting meditation allows you to file those away into long term memory so you become a more reactive consciousness that responds to reality as opposed to interpretation of reality that have been filtered through your automated response mechanisms to subtly change their memory in a way that is less objective based on previous events. Objectivity in emotional or difficult situations is generally considered to be more desirable because it leads to a reduction in stress and anxiety.

    There are also theories that it affects the sympathetic and parasympathetic system to alter anxiety levels and preconditioned responses like anger or stress, as well as other theories about the amydula and prefrontal cortex and the relationship of these to how you make decisions and how your body reacts to stimuli.

    There is another form of meditation that I would be remiss in not mentioning and that is insight meditation. This is quiet focused contemplation that escalates into something different. Where you can focus thought without interruption or digression. The beginner frequently starts with becoming more mindful of his surroundings and of his physicality, his consciousness and his own state of mind. The next stage is one of reflection which is where it can be problematic as it is not always pleasant. Passing these stages is however pleasant and this is where something akin to inner peace is found as you become more equanamicable towards impermenance and other ideas that have been troubling you and finally more troubling insights and acceptance of impermanence which leads into something akin to the 7 step grief process before acceptance hits and at this point theoretically suffering ends as things become so easy to accept. Maybe akin to being permanently blasting heroin."

    Since YOU decided to bring up meditation & specifically Buddhist meditation, it is a given that knowing my position on Buddhist meditation that I would address you the way I did.

    Enough about Buddhist meditation, suffice to say that various forms of meditations direct the individual to a particular goal.

    The question really is: Is THIS supposed goal the existential "True" goal of life of just another man made delusion? Another "Selfish" creation of a man, woman, or a group of people used to manipulate others by creating a false notion of security & authority?

    Thanks
    hellas1

  11. #11
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    I did bring up meditation, I didn't specifically say there is no God in Buddhism just that the initial stages do initiate effects that could be taken as mystical. I don't think there is any mysticism at all of course but even if there was it damn sure wouldn't be in the beginning stages.

    But you saw that and thought there was a hint of atheism in there and began to froth at the mouth and rant about purist buddhism and brahman....

    I can't debate with you Hellas because everything is just an excuse to rant about god or brahman.

    Take it easy.

  12. #12

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Buddha was a bit of an ass if you think about it, he abandonned his wife and children to go off on his quest for enlightenment. He left a letter to his father telling him not to worry because death would eventually separate them anyway, then off he went as a wandering ascetic. I'm not sure if that's really quite the example we should be following.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  13. #13
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,239

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    " I was just contemplating this and have only reinforced what I believe, that SELF is the human problem."

    hellas1,

    Paul writes that the fall of man meant that God handed them all over to the lusts of their hearts which to all intents and purposes conspires to agree with your thinking. There is another thing that shows how strong your assertion is comes about at conversion itself. Apart from the corrupt body what is the other thing that remains intact?

    If we look to the new believer and why he or she has the Comforter on which to lean on, to rely on, it is because we retain our memories and it is these that tempt us and continue to tempt us as we journey through our new lives in Christ Jesus. The saying " keep your eyes on Jesus " comes into its own because if we take our eyes off Him for sure our memories will tempt us.

    The Christian knows that life with Jesus Christ is not about self but about giving, what He gave you, to others that they too might share the rewards. The honest Christian will freely admit how easy it is to fall back into selfishness but for the love of God. It's not that easy to give, to forgive, at least not in my experience, but then I cannot claim to be the greatest Christian.

  14. #14
    Opifex
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    15,154

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    I was just contemplating this and have only reinforced what I believe, that SELF is the human problem.
    You're bordering on dangerous and anti-Christian ground there hellas1. If the Self is the problem, then who is supposed to accept salvation? If Self is the problem, why does the Bible concern itself only, exclusively, with saving the individual person, being so much indifferent to the masses of people at large? Christianity at its core supports individualism and self-resposibility; you're veering off into Buddhism.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  15. #15
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    You're bordering on dangerous and anti-Christian ground there hellas1. If the Self is the problem, then who is supposed to accept salvation? If Self is the problem, why does the Bible concern itself only, exclusively, with saving the individual person, being so much indifferent to the masses of people at large? Christianity at its core supports individualism and self-resposibility; you're veering off into Buddhism.
    Don't get him started. He is obsessed with being a Christian Buddhist and trying to introduce god and the soul into buddhism and he only ever starts topics about Buddhism to do this. I get the feeling he is a Christian who wants to be a buddhist, or a buddhist who wants to be a Christian but thoroughly unwilling to adapt fully the ideas of either.

    Just a nice piece on the self by the way for anyone who might be interested.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth? Second, it doesn't fit well with our own Judeo-Christian background, which assumes the existence of an eternal soul or self as a basic presupposition: If there's no self, what's the purpose of a spiritual life? Many books try to answer these questions, but if you look at the Pali canon — the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings — you won't find them addressed at all. In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. Thus the question should be put aside. To understand what his silence on this question says about the meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his answers.

    The Buddha divided all questions into four classes: those that deserve a categorical (straight yes or no) answer; those that deserve an analytical answer, defining and qualifying the terms of the question; those that deserve a counter-question, putting the ball back in the questioner's court; and those that deserve to be put aside. The last class of question consists of those that don't lead to the end of suffering and stress. The first duty of a teacher, when asked a question, is to figure out which class the question belongs to, and then to respond in the appropriate way. You don't, for example, say yes or no to a question that should be put aside. If you are the person asking the question and you get an answer, you should then determine how far the answer should be interpreted. The Buddha said that there are two types of people who misrepresent him: those who draw inferences from statements that shouldn't have inferences drawn from them, and those who don't draw inferences from those that should.

    These are the basic ground rules for interpreting the Buddha's teachings, but if we look at the way most writers treat the anatta doctrine, we find these ground rules ignored. Some writers try to qualify the no-self interpretation by saying that the Buddha denied the existence of an eternal self or a separate self, but this is to give an analytical answer to a question that the Buddha showed should be put aside. Others try to draw inferences from the few statements in the discourse that seem to imply that there is no self, but it seems safe to assume that if one forces those statements to give an answer to a question that should be put aside, one is drawing inferences where they shouldn't be drawn.



    So, instead of answering "no" to the question of whether or not there is a self — interconnected or separate, eternal or not — the Buddha felt that the question was misguided to begin with. Why? No matter how you define the line between "self" and "other," the notion of self involves an element of self-identification and clinging, and thus suffering and stress. This holds as much for an interconnected self, which recognizes no "other," as it does for a separate self. If one identifies with all of nature, one is pained by every felled tree. It also holds for an entirely "other" universe, in which the sense of alienation and futility would become so debilitating as to make the quest for happiness — one's own or that of others — impossible. For these reasons, the Buddha advised paying no attention to such questions as "Do I exist?" or "Don't I exist?" for however you answer them, they lead to suffering and stress.

    To avoid the suffering implicit in questions of "self" and "other," he offered an alternative way of dividing up experience: the four Noble Truths of stress, its cause, its cessation, and the path to its cessation. Rather than viewing these truths as pertaining to self or other, he said, one should recognize them simply for what they are, in and of themselves, as they are directly experienced, and then perform the duty appropriate to each. Stress should be comprehended, its cause abandoned, its cessation realized, and the path to its cessation developed. These duties form the context in which the anatta doctrine is best understood. If you develop the path of virtue, concentration, and discernment to a state of calm well-being and use that calm state to look at experience in terms of the Noble Truths, the questions that occur to the mind are not "Is there a self? What is my self?" but rather "Am I suffering stress because I'm holding onto this particular phenomenon? Is it really me, myself, or mine? If it's stressful but not really me or mine, why hold on?" These last questions merit straightforward answers, as they then help you to comprehend stress and to chip away at the attachment and clinging — the residual sense of self-identification — that cause it, until ultimately all traces of self-identification are gone and all that's left is limitless freedom.

    In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?


    Edit: Helm you don't just 'come' over to atheism because it has a nice belief structure. It is just a lack of a belief, it doesn't have weekly meetings a welcoming pamphlet.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    You're bordering on dangerous and anti-Christian ground there hellas1. If the Self is the problem, then who is supposed to accept salvation? If Self is the problem, why does the Bible concern itself only, exclusively, with saving the individual person, being so much indifferent to the masses of people at large? Christianity at its core supports individualism and self-resposibility; you're veering off into Buddhism.



    hellas1,

    I'm writing a PM to you on this subject , since of course I have little faith in the capabilities of fellow EMM'ers from discussing this with a minimum of knowledge or open-mindedness.

    Basically, don't believe in those people (Denny Crane, SigOne) who argue that your notions are incompatible with a true authoritative practice of Christianity. The very modern notion of the "ego as individuality" and of "individuality as the true self" (not the "self" which you dennounce here, which is basically the "ego") is derived from Thomistic distortions, so it's no surprise that even western skeptics spouse it.

    IMHO, you're usually interesting in your posts, except ocasionally when you confuse Brahman with a theistic entity or the likes. Of course.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; February 19, 2011 at 07:32 AM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  17. #17
    Opifex
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    15,154

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    The very modern notion of the "ego as individuality" and of "individuality as the true self" (not the "self" which you dennounce here, which is basically the "ego") is derived from Thomistic distortions, so it's no surprise that even western skeptics spouse it.
    Read the Bible.


    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    The thing that I like about Buddhist meditation "practice" in Dzogchen is that one watches one's thoughts and ones emotions WITHOUT using or denying or sublimating the emotions.
    One "Nakedly or is merely aware" of what is happening inside one's thought life and emotional life without clinging.
    There is nothing Buddhist about this. Normal people do it all the time.

    I have not found a system of awareness like Choiceless Awareness at all in ANY religion or spiritual path or philosophy other than in Dzogchen and I believe in Advaita Vedanta as well (Ramana Maharshi's teachings.)
    That's because Christianity for example, focuses on the principles and the answers, not the process. The process itself is hardly mysterious or difficult; simple introspection is as powerful as all the meditation techniques from Buddhism, so there is no need to occupy space of religious dogma with basically obvious answers anyway.


    My bottom line stance regarding Buddhism & Vedanta:
    I do believe that psychologically speaking, Dzogchen and Advaita Vedanta are the most superior forms of observing the psyche per se. This does NOT mean that I am a "Buddhist" nor does it mean that I worship "Shiva" as Vedantist's call their personal God.
    Sounds good, but just watch out, because based on your thread title one would've been led to believe otherwise.


    I am concerned about probing into the psyche and promoting change within a person as a Christian, knowing that the Holy Spirit is the one who has taken me out of spiritual death into life.
    I don't see the source of concern. Unless you believe the Holy Spirit works within you regardless of you and your self?
    Last edited by SigniferOne; February 20, 2011 at 10:32 AM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  18. #18
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    @Denny Crane,

    What I mean is that we perceive ourselves through MANY different shades of glasses:

    Ex. Nationality
    Religion
    Economic status
    Intelligence
    Sex
    Political affiliation
    Etc.
    No different to what I've said.

    The thing that I like about Buddhist meditation "practice" in Dzogchen is that one watches one's thoughts and ones emotions WITHOUT using or denying or sublimating the emotions.
    Never came across a single buddhist practice that would tell you too, you are supposed to observe these things and become aware of them.

    One "Nakedly or is merely aware" of what is happening inside one's thought life and emotional life without clinging. This is not to nullify morals & ethics, far from it actually. The point is to break past conditioning on the very subtle levels of one's self (used as a conventionality for MY purposes.)
    Are you just deliberately repeating what I said for fun? I never mentioned denying it, what I talked about was breaking the chains of conditioning or at least becoming aware of the conditioning.

    In my experience, having been introduced to Jiddhu Krishnamurti who advocated "Choiceless awareness," I don't see how other forms of so-called meditation could work. Krishnamurti advocated immediate not gradual change via Choiceless Awareness or as it's called in Dzogchen "Naked Awareness."
    Right so once again you will tell everyone how yours and only yours is the true path... whatever mate, you are so repetitive that it just washes over me now. Whatever satisfies your ego.
    I have not found a system of awareness like Choiceless Awareness at all in ANY religion or spiritual path or philosophy other than in Dzogchen and I believe in Advaita Vedanta as well (Ramana Maharshi's teachings.)
    Thats because you are a prophet dude, sent to guide us.



    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    Read the Bible.



    There is nothing Buddhist about this. Normal people do it all the time.


    That's because Christianity for example, focuses on the principles and the answers, not the process. The process itself is hardly mysterious or difficult; simple introspection is as powerful as all the meditation techniques from Buddhism, so there is no need to occupy space of religious dogma with basically obvious answers anyway.
    Are you trying to intimate that meditation is a waste of time or just not specific to this case? I'd be interested to know what you think about the various forms of christian meditation if that were the case.

  19. #19
    Opifex
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    15,154

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    Are you trying to intimate that meditation is a waste of time or just not specific to this case? I'd be interested to know what you think about the various forms of christian meditation if that were the case.
    No, not at all! Only that it's not the province of the Eastern "no self" philosophies. Introspection and meditation are important, and like you said Christians have always viewed them as such.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  20. #20

    Default Re: The REAL human problem: SELF

    @Signifer One,

    Thanks for posting and your concerns.


    Essentially what I stress is that the fallen nature or Self is the issue here.

    Ex. My wants, my desires, my dreams, my life, me, me, me OVER your wants, desires, dreams.

    I am NOT denying that we do have a will.
    I AM denying the fact that our personalities are actually authentic or original, they are not!

    Christians are being conformed to Christ's NATURE not his personality, Right? Right.
    This is not a "personality" issue at all but being like God.

    Amen.

    hellas1

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •