How to best use Dwarf Axethrowers

[Venatio]

Ever since I started playing Dwarves, one thing that has bothered me is how to use their axethrowing units. The Dwarves of Ered-Luin get two, and they are incredibly cool. However, after some test runs on custom battles, it seems to me that whatever they could do is better done by another unit.

-Their range is to small to give out more than one or two volleys before the enemy crashes into melee.
-Axethrowers dont fare well at all in melee compared to their warrior-melee counterparts (Lower AP attack, drastically lower armor), and they arent as fast as other skirmishes to avoid it or cheap enough to use as screens.
-Supporting behind the lines is better but still limited. Put them behind an extended warrior line and they wont have to worry about retreating or immedialty engaging in melee, but they have less range to work with before the melee.
-Axethrowers wont fire directly into an engagement between your forces and the enemy, which is both good and bad.
-Axes are great at chipping away at enemies who stand still long enough. A group of trolls will be devastated (AP), but the issue remains that once tied in melee, they become more subpar (still decent AP).
-You could theoretically manuevar them on the flanks, but I would much rather have an extra warrior to anchor and crash into the ends of the enemy battle line.
-Overral ranged support is better done by Crossbowmen, and better still by Scouts (Gotta love Scouts!)

The best way I imagine Axethrowers fulfilling their role in battle is by sitting behind a shield warrior screen and devastating the enemy charge before engaing in the melee themselves in support. They can do this now (as outlined above) but their initial volleys lack the bite to really make enough of a difference in the ensueing conflict to not warrant an extra warrior unit instead (I'd say a 10-15 casualty inflicted average). The only way I see Axethrowers really coming into their own is either by making them more viable in melee (increased defense), or increasing the potency of their axes greatly (increased accuracy, attack, reduced axe ammo). For all their reputation of being melee machines, I believe ranged support is critical to a well balanced Dwarf force, and I would like to see axethrowers be a part of that.

Thoughts?

[Ariaci]

sir Venatio,

Very well written post! Have some rep

Well, reading your post was for me like.....you read my mind. I have only one thing to say that I am able to do sometimes. This is to use the high ground for increased range and also use cliffs (the impassible terrrain on mountains) to rain death from above. But both of these things are very situational.

So.....looks arround if KK or MBA are not watching.....nop, they are offline......good....... I have changed the range of the unit in the unit description file. This way it solves all the problems you descriped in your post. Do not know if this helps you.

If you do not know how to do this let me know (just post it here), I (or somebody else) will try my best to guide you through.

Ariaci

[Venatio]

Thank you for the rep and suggestion Ariaci. You are right that the increase in range would go a great deal to helping axethrowers launch more volleys, if only becase they seem to have an abysmally long reload time for the intial axe volley. I do know how to make those changes, and will continue to tinker with them. And yes Beregond, I was talking about the Dwarf Archers from FROME. They fill a critical role in the dwarf army unbearably well, as their indirect volley fires simply devastate formations of troops. A few units in most armies will be taking the lion's share of the kills if their bow fire is directed appropriately. They outshine crossbowmen tenfold, and pair up with Dwarven Heavy infantry to create an unbreakable firebase. On a related matter, even with the range change, axethrowers still pale in ranged support compared to a dedicated bowielding unit. This is likely how it should be, but at the same time I think that its futile to try to get axethrowers up to par baring some huge buff to damage output or bizzarre increase to range.

There is another way, I should think, to make axethrowers a viable ranged support unit. They already have Armor Penetration, but that doesnt really go a long way to increasing their kill count nor setting them apart as a unique unit. My first suggestion would be the implementation of a new attr; Shield penetration. This should theoretically give them a new and important role; the devastation of Heavy Shield Infantry normally resistant to ranged attacks (albeit at closer ranges). The second, given their lower ammo capacity, is increasing their defense in melee combat. That would make them far more useful in counter charging a weakend enemy unit and supporting more combat oriented units in battle. And, Lo and Behold, Axethrowers dont have a Shield Value in their Defense stats. Zippo, nada. I might be going insane, but I am pretty sure that is a shield attached to their left arms. I would have to go on a limb here and suggest a +2 (Maybe a +3) shield bonus. These two changes, combined with Ariaci's idea of a range increase, should make axethrowers an important part of any dwarf force, supporting The battle line before charging into the fray themselves when out of axes or to stop the bleeding (or more appropriately, to cause lots of it) when a breach in the line occurs.

[Lordinquisitor]

There is another way, I should think, to make axethrowers a viable ranged support unit. They already have Armor Penetration, but that doesnt really go a long way to increasing their kill count nor setting them apart as a unique unit. My first suggestion would be the implementation of a new attr; Shield penetration.

Which is absolutely impossible.

[Venatio]

Which is absolutely impossible.

Bahumbug
Ok.... Plan B: Increase their attack by +2 and add +0.010 to their accuracy

I am really perplexed that this is impposible, but I guess it goes deeper into the combat system then simple coding would permit.

[Beregond]

good ideas here

I always use them on flanks, personally I like the effect of the shower of axes on heavily armoured enemy troops. The mountain terrain help much for high-ground positioning. And against low-quality orc troops like snagas/goblin band etc they hold pretty well in melee, at least to buy the time for the commander to rout enemies in other areas of the battlefield and turn troops to help axethrowers. Also good as meatshield against snagas (though snagas in 2.1 are pretty dumb and the only thing they do is infuriate me running to and fro on the map)

btw, by Scouts you mean archers from FROME?

[Cyclops]

...I always use them on flanks...

Ditto. Pack them in narrow formations between/behind your meaty dwarven line trops and they piff axes as the enemy arrives to disrupt charges (not so effective vs cav though) and then scuttle out to flank/interpenetrate the enemy formations for some missile-and-charge-from-the-rear action.

[Lord Butters I]

I use them exactly the way I use Velites in Rome: when playing an open-field battle, the main line of infantry walks towards the enemy while the axe throwers run. The throwers fire off a few volleys, then when the main line arrive they fall back behind it and the line enages the enemy. Once this is in place, if the enemy possess significant cavalry strength the axe throwers stay behind the main line, otherwise they move around the flanks until they're clear to fire directly into the enemy's rear. They then do this, and once ammunition is spent charge into the flanks to support the main line, surrounding the remaining enemy if at all possible.

[Minas Moth]

I for one think that there could be improvments made consernig damage and accuracy done by axethrowers. however i don't think they should recieve any (or significant) increse in defence.. That would lead to a unit that could inflict casualties by axe throwing (skirmisher) and at the same time would be capable of holding a line. So you could hold of anything but enemies most elite troops... infact you could build an army with 8 stacks of throwers and one elite unit and be able to beat most of enemies by simply holding them in place with throwers and routing them with dragonslayers for example...

so, i think they should be the weakest at meele...

[Venatio]

That would lead to a unit that could inflict casualties by axe throwing (skirmisher) and at the same time would be capable of holding a line.

Thats the general idea I am trying to get at, and I dont see anything wrong with it. A +2 Shield Bonus (bringing their effective Melee Defense up to 14) isnt going to make them so much better in melee that you should bring them in unsupported or have them hold the line. At the same time, it will allow them to viably engage enage in melee with the likes of Goblins, Orcs, and militia troops aswell as flank attack the harder stuff. Axethrowers need to be decent in melee, otherwise they are limited to being a subpar unit given the limitations of their throwing axes as outlined in my original and ensueing posts. They already have a decent melee atk (with AP to boot!), they just need a bit more styaing power to use it. I would think a cost increase would also help justify the bonus.

But you raise and interesting point, and theres no reason I cant test the effect of using this version of axethrowers disproportionally more so than usual.

[Minas Moth]

I was just stating my opinion, although i undestand where you're coming from... i avoid using them as much as possibble, i put them behind my line to weaken enemy's charge and then hold them in reserve as the last resort...

One think that also comes to my mind would be to increse their speed if it's possible. due to their's lack of heavy armour and the fact that they don't carry that much axes i belive they should be the fastest dwarven unit. no combine that with some charge bonus you get a unit that can inflict some high damage to the enemy during the inital attack, but is still capable of retreating from meele one it's attack wears down...

it's just a thought...

i think your idea is great, but as always it can get even better

[Space Voyager]

I used them behind the main line. Let other units take the first strike than get them right after the battle line and let them throw all they've got. Than you can perform a standard flanking manoeuvre with them, their attack is quite ok.

EDIT: also it is not always a question of whether to use them at all. Sometimes they are all there is to use if you play VH/VH.

[Cambyses]

Get behind the enemy and throw the axes into the backs of an already engaged unit. that's the best use of any javelin type troop.

In sieges, get them onto a wall or find a height advantage somehow, and they can be very effective because they like the short range and have a high rate of fire.

[Minas Moth]

Get behind the enemy and throw the axes into the backs of an already engaged unit. that's the best use of any javelin type troop.

In sieges, get them onto a wall or find a height advantage somehow, and they can be very effective because they like the short range and have a high rate of fire.

it is, but with dwarves one has to be careful not to get his troops stormed by enemy cavalry while on the move, also most of the battle would be over before you could get them quite in the best position... this would be great strategie with enemy who has none or limited cavalry, otherwise it would be quite dangerous...

i tried it out so i'm not making it up. i fought two battles (both against isengard)(custom ofc)(both on highest difficulty)...in first isengard didn't have any wargs so when they engaged my main battle line i flanked them with axethrowers and they worked like a charm, the second time however, my axethrowers were engaged by warg riders almost immediatly when i started to flank them. that led to devastating 90% losses in 4 units of axe throwers... so, use them wisely...

[Cyclops]

... warg riders almost ... 90% losses ... use them wisely...

Yes its a hard lesson well learned.

One tactic is the "mini-flank". Sometimes the enemy will attack piecemeal, sending forward some cav or some assault units that engage portions of your line.

In this case I shuffle the un-engaged units forward (and spread slightly) so they are behind the impetuous enemy, then I shuffle the axe-men (or other javelin types) into the gaps so they can throw missiles and charge into the flanks of the "embedded" units.

Phase 1
ENEMY_____________ENEMY
_________ENEMY
WARRIOR WARRIOR WARRIOR
AXETHROWER

Phase 2
__ENEMY___________ ENEMY
W A R R I O R____W A R R I O R
AXETHROWER> ENEMY
__________WARRIOR

Phase 3

????

Phase 4

$$$$$

[Minas Moth]

quite nice display of supreme tactics!!! hail to the wining general!!!

seenig it makes me ask again something, wouldn't be great if they had great charge bonus(with low desfense) so you get that one-time smashing charge in the enemy's flank?... OFC you would have to be careful to withdraw them before they get engaged in meele they will surely loose.

[C.Maximus]

Flanks are good I get behind enemy and throw axes into the rear they are highy effective if you do this

[Mikail Mengsk]

I almost never use them: i rush for Crossbowmen.