From Kiev with Love

**recentiy03** · February 12, 2011, 06:56 PM

After my latest round of video card problems I took it as an omen and put my Crusader States campaign on hold in order to try the Grand Dutchy of Kiev. I'm running an early campaign with BGR IV, VH/VH, RR, no cheats (and no save resets. If he dies, he dies).

It's my first time playing Kiev so I wasn't sure about their units, although that turns out to be not much of a problem because I'm limited to pretty much 3 options: light infantry, weak archers and weak horse archers. Why? Because there are no castles. It's also my first early campaign on 6.4.

My strategy was to attempt to align myself with everyone at the cost of anywhere from 1,000-2,000 florins. I'm not quite sure why, but everyone wants to be friends with Kiev! Not everyone paid me to be buddies, but I was able to get an alliance with all neighboring factions, which allowed me to gobble up the surrounding rebel settlements. I made it a priority to align myself with all Catholic factions but my real focus was on the Byzantine Empire. Weary of their potential for dominance, I've kept a close on my Orthodox friends to the south. My original Veliky's daughter married Andreninos Komnenos, and he is currently in charge of the Lithuania campaign to the west. After my heir married their 10-heart princess, they generously sold me Caffa for 6,000 florins.

Because the map is so large, I've had to split my army in two groups, half going east, half west; so the other campaign, and the real challenge up to this point, is the Cumans. This is where lack of a spear unit has really hurt. Stacking light infantry does nothing against a charge. I was able to expand with relative ease, but it seems for each province I take in the west I lose one in the east to the Cumans. The Mongols can't arrive soon enough because the Cumans don't seem very interested in attacking the Kwamizarians. I really wasn't planning on expanding east at all until I realized they weren't going to stop attacking me.

The Crusader States are the only faction to have been eliminated and Lithuania looks to be next, largely the result of Catholic factions. I tried to join the fun when the Pope called crusade on Vilinus but because I didn't have the movement buff I was only able to grab Mensk. Luckily after Hungary won Vilinus they traded it to me for Sarkel straight-up, including a full stack crusade army. It's been fun but things could really turn on a dime. The Cumans are in the process of splitting my empire up the middle and I don't have an army to stop them. If they keep attacking it could be over rather quickly. Anyone ever played a Kiev campaign before have any suggestions in terms of dealing with the Cumans?

Faction Rankings:
1. Byzantine Empire

2. HRE
3. Kwamezarians
4. Seljuks
5. Fatimids
19. Kiev

**Radzeer** · February 12, 2011, 08:58 PM

I'm playing Kiev now, in 6.3 and no BGR, so not everything applies. What I was wondering about after reading your post is what happened to Bryansk? That was a castle in 6.3 and you could get spearmen (after some time). Same with Tmutarakan.

Anyhow, the Cuman medicine is not fighting them in the open, especially when they get the Bekh HA units that outshoot the Pechenegs. In siege defense it is not that difficult to stop them because they rush the HAs through the gate as opposed to spreading them out. In siege assaults, the you should have some advantage in infantry b/c the javelinmen Kiev can recruit, but make sure to bring enough as the AI tends to bring the defending HA units to the wall and they can decimate your attacker on the walls. I was able to stop them at Pereyaslav and Azaq with junior militia, but it came with about 50% casualties all the time (so bring enough, they are cheap).

If your relations and treasury allow, you may try to bring in the Seljuks against the Cumans. In my game, they are constantly at war. But again, some things may be different in 6.4 and for BGR. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

**Kolaris8472** · February 12, 2011, 09:10 PM

Why don't you have any castles in the east exactly? You should have Bryansk, although it's slow developing. And then you should have that castle on the Black Sea south of Azaq/Azav.

Meanwhile the Cumans should have Serdoba southeast of Bryansk, and then Don east of Azav. My priority is usually pushing forward east to take out Don, as if the Cumans have that they usually split their attacks between my castle and city on the Black Sea. I usually prefer a single front so taking Don is critical.

If you didn't take Serdoba or Don, and you lost Bryansk and south-of-Azav-Castle, yeah...I can see where a lack of Castles could come in.

Pechenegs and Spears are critical against the Cumans, so you definitely need to get a hold of a castle in a hurry. Archer Militia can take the Cuman Horse Militia but anything heavier than that you're screwed. Mercenary Spears and Crossbows would come in handy if you have the funds.

**recentiy03** · February 12, 2011, 09:41 PM

You're right, in the beginning you have a mote and bailey and a wooden castle, but they're both low population. For some reason after randomly attacking me during the first few turns the Cumans really wanted a ceasefire; I made them give me Sarkel and 5000 florins. It was funny because they attacked me again a few turns later so overpaying for a ceasefire was pointless. And I mispoke in the previous post...I traded Hungary Bryansk for Vilinius, not Sarkel...I couldn't believe they accepted...I'm in the process of turning Vilinius into a fortress AND it had a full stack...I'm actually in really good shape now in terms of castles - in addition to Sarkel and Vilinius, my heir went on a rampage, taking Serdobinsiga and Ryaza) - so I have a wall of castles protecting me from the Cumans, but my economy is lagging and despite the size of my empire none of my cities are making more than 1800 a turn. If I can get out of the red then I should be able to recruit spearmen now and even better units in Vilinius...at which point I can work on freeing Azaq and Pereyaslav. Really it seems like the best solution for stopping the Cumans was taking their castles...else face the endless barrage...

**k/t** · February 12, 2011, 10:06 PM

Pick a castle that they seem to attack a lot and fortify it. Build some Ballista Towers. Allow them to attack it endlessly. The Cuman infantry is crap and the horsearchers are useless in a siege.

**Ferdiad** · February 12, 2011, 10:49 PM

You know this is the wrong thread to post this?

Try this:http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=418178

**Ichon** · February 12, 2011, 10:55 PM

Cumans have alot of trouble putting together a full stack early in the campaign and if you strike east directly and capture as much as possible especially in early era before Cumans get their better units rolling your generals with some help can defeat most Cuman stacks. If you wait long... well it gets harder. Hungary, Byzantines, and Cumans before Mongols arrive are typically the challenges for me. Hungary usually is the most annoying because I wait and they grow strong.

That is the fun of playing Kiev though- especially with BGR there is no way to go all directions at the same time- usually 2 out 3 is the most you can hope for and that is counting on Novgorod to remain friendly. So some faction always has time to grow up and prove problematic. Hungary and Cumans probably more difficult for Kiev to deal with since Kiev can get decent amount of cavalry with castles but most of it is relatively low armor and takes lot of casualties chasing down HA.

Also you should check out Radzeer's AAR with Kiev for some role playing ideas. http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=401281

**Zanze** · February 13, 2011, 01:20 AM

Cuman land is useless.

Take Ryazan, Serdoba, and Sarkel and go no further. Normally for me they all funnel into Serdoba, but I still leave slightly more than a skeleton force in the other 2 just in case.

Since you're Kiev and not Novgorod you actually get two directions to expand, North or South. In most of my campaigns of gone north for that united russian war-machine feel...but I'm trying south this time. In the process of grabbing the 3 castles and then Hungary will die in a fire of masses and masses of junior militia.

Oh, Javelins are your friends. Lots and LOTS of javelins. (By that I mean Chude Militia. Think of them as armored junior militia that wont route at the drop of a feather. 3-5 of them can defend against most city attacks)

**recentiy03** · February 13, 2011, 05:36 PM

Looks like trying to surround Azaq and Pereyaslav by taking Serbo and Ryazan failed miserably. Things seemed to be going well until the Byzantines unexpectedly moved a general who was blocking a Turkish army from advancing into Kutaisi in the south. When Kutiasi fell it was the beginning of the end for my central Asian castles and the eastern portion of my dutchy. Although, actually, the real problem was my heir died and my eastern army went with him. I was going to reclaim Azaq and Pereyaslav on the way south from Ryazan but when the heir was ambushed things spiraled out of control. I decided enough is enough after losing back Ryazan and Serbo, in addition to Kutaisi, so I struck a deal with the Danish - Riga straight-up for Sarkel. That leaves Tmutarakan all by its lonesome, although what can I do. Caffa is under siege and looks like it is gonna fall next. So things are rather grim at the moment. The good news is my Lithuanian campaign was a success and now that I have Riga, Vilinius and Hronda, not to mention Kiev and a few of my original settlements, it's possible I can turn things around. Luckily I'm not at war with any Catholic nations, and having migrated so far west, I'm hoping the fighting cools down for a bit.

**Zanze** · February 13, 2011, 07:18 PM

As long as you can hold Kiev city itself you should be able to recover. Your main goal as the Rus is to centralize(imo at least, damn distances and split and vulnerable cities don't mesh well). It's why I prefer to take the 3 castles to stop any attack from the east so that moving to the west is relatively safe(r).

Keep at it, and good luck.

**recentiy03** · February 15, 2011, 08:17 PM

Anyone know how I get a new Patriarch? Riga isn't too happy about being converted to Christianity. In fact, it is a minor miracle I didn't lose the city because it was rioting for 5 straight turns. I was finally able to get enough soldiers to reach 75%, but they're not really buying what my small church is preaching. Lithuania has 2 priests standing right outside and the Polish have a Cardinal. They're being pulled in every direction and it seems like I have the least sway.

**Ichon** · February 15, 2011, 08:57 PM

Time for assassins or a military escort out of your lands. The smaller religion always has bigger percentage gain with less priests so to cancel out 3 priests from 2 different religions you probably need at least 6-7 of your own. Higher level churches help a bit as well.

**recentiy03** · February 15, 2011, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Ichon

Time for assassins or a military escort out of your lands. The smaller religion always has bigger percentage gain with less priests so to cancel out 3 priests from 2 different religions you probably need at least 6-7 of your own. Higher level churches help a bit as well.

That's why I thought the Patriarch might help...only problem is he died a few turns back. I thought that would promote one of my other priests, but I'm still Patriarch-less...is it even possible to get a new one? I searched the forum and couldn't find the answer. I would train an assassin but none of my cities are capable.