On Tolkien, allegory, racism, etc (split from 'Haradrim Empire' thread)

[Tuskin4]

These are various peoples of Middle Earth and what people they represent in the real world. Edited

Haradrim=North Afircan(posibly Berbers and maybe ancient Charthage or Mauritania)
Far Haradrim=Sub Sahara Africa
Khand=central Asian Turkic tribes
Rhun=Slavic and Bulgar tribes
Rohan=Anglo Saxon
Dunland=Gothic Frankish and Vandal
Dale and the Running River peoples=closly related to Rohan
Rhovinion=related to Rohan
Dunadein Numinorian Arnorian Gongorion=Roman and Medieval western Europe
Umbar=Italo Normans(Noramans who mixed with Greek Italian or Lombard and Arabic)

[Beorn]

I disagree with teh above comparisons, to say at least

[Mhaedros]

The camels where jused by the Mahud tribes in south Harad to be correct.

[Thangaror]

These are various peoples of Middle Earth and what people they represent in the real world.

Dunland=Germanic tribes
Dale and the Running River peoples=Rus(mix between Viking and Slavic)
Rhovinion=Slavic
Dunadein Numinorian Arnorian Gongorion=Roman or Italian

Some ridiculous parallels are drawn here. The Dunlendings resemble Germanic tribes? LOL. The Angles and Saxons were germanic tribes! Also, the people of Dale and Rhovanion were closely related to the Rohirrim.
Whilst the Dúnedain do have some parallels with Romans or Greeks there are huge differences; even if you disregard size and methods of warfare.

The camels where jused by the Mahud tribes in south Harad to be correct.

"Mahout" is a indian word for a person who rides elephants.
Who's the fellow who came up with camels?

Why is that? I mean, if i was to compare rohan people with an medieval culture of the real-world i think i would compare they to a nomadic, horse based tribe (like the scithyans)...

Anglo Saxons never were great knights (in fact, they even had horses when invaded brittanny)

Tolkien states it somewhere. Their speech, their look, their culture. Granted, the Anglo Saxons were anything but great horsemen. But the Rohirrim are Anglo Saxons. With horses.

The architecture. Also the book is a political statement, or could be taken as one. Remember C.S. Lewis wasn't that subtle in his hints either. In tolkein's world, the west are the good guys and the eastern are the bad guys, Mirroring anticommunist sentiments at the time. Also the Valar=Americans.

NO! No no no! Once again Tolkien is misunderstood completely. The East in Tolkien's world is not bad. The Elves woke at Cuívienen in the far east, men woke even further east. In the east, the sun rises. It's the North, where evil has lurked for millienia and will forever.
Remember also that Tolkien began with his writings in the early 20s and had long finished the storyline of LotR when the Cold War fully began. Some people say that the War of the Ring represents either the 2nd or 1st World War, but even this Tolkien always rejected; though I think, he stated somewhere that the war contributed to the, compared to The Hobbit, darker atmosphere in LotR.

Where else than in the East, Sauron could have etablished his power? In the North the Elves and Dwarves had their realms. The coasts were dominated by Númenór. East was the only possibility.

[Aradan]

1. Don't try to "map" Middle-earth on our world. Tolkien didn't intend it and it's not going to work. All such parallels drawn are made by fans and are generally ridiculous. Yes, some Middle-earth cultures borrow some elements (linguistic, architectural, etc) from real-world cultures, but that's as far as it goes.

2. Fan-fic "information", like tribes of the Haradrim etc are also garbage made up by fans. Tolkien never mentioned even one such tribe (for example) and never mentioned camels.

[Mhaedros]

Ok I believe you, but where do you got all info? Well of course the books, but how do you know exactly what he ment?

[Guedes]

Rohan=Anglo Saxon

Why is that? I mean, if i was to compare rohan people with an medieval culture of the real-world i think i would compare they to a nomadic, horse based tribe (like the scithyans)...

Anglo Saxons never were great knights (in fact, they even had horses when invaded brittanny)

[Themea]

Why is that? I mean, if i was to compare rohan people with an medieval culture of the real-world i think i would compare they to a nomadic, horse based tribe (like the scithyans)...

Anglo Saxons never were great knights (in fact, they even had horses when invaded brittanny)

The architecture. Also the book is a political statement, or could be taken as one. Remember C.S. Lewis wasn't that subtle in his hints either. In tolkein's world, the west are the good guys and the eastern are the bad guys, Mirroring anticommunist sentiments at the time. Also the Valar=Americans.

[Guedes]

Never thought about it, but now that u mentioned, its quite logical... and funny lol

So Tolkien was anticommunist?

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Some say he was racist. I don't know, and I don't want to either.

But to give my opinion on the subject; it's like Aradan said. You can't map Middle-Earth. I think you also can't map the good guys vs. the bad guys in the real world.

[Aradan]

I wonder where all these fan-fic sites find material to support all that nonsense... Tolkien himself said he disliked allegory and that there are no intended parallels between ME and our world.

Nice reads:

http://verdevivoverdechiaro.blogspot...icability.html

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Racis...kien%27s_Works

[acci_dent]

e: ^^^ basically what he said

Both Tolkien and his son who edits and releases much of Tolkien's unpublished writings have said that there is no intentional connection between the real world and Tokien's world. Readers are free to draw there own parallels but there is no underlying message or statement.

[Themea]

Wasn't fan fic aradan, was a political science analysis of Tolkein's world. Using the three books only, it was a five page paper on the political climate of Tolkein's time as it related to the books.
Also Tanagor, anti communist sentiments began in the twenties. In the United States there were active communist hunts. I recall there being a famous case, but it slips my mind atm. Also Britain was harboring anti communist sentiments for Russia's involvement in the first World War, as we all recall they left because of the communist revolution. However we digress from the original topic of the thread, and I shall say no more on the matter.

[Aradan]

Even if the situation described in LotR is applicable to our world (and one could apply specific parts to way more cases than just communist Russia), Tolkien himself said that was not his intention to draw parallels and that he despised allegory. He was a linguistics professor that worked on a book for more than 15 years, we can't possibly assume that he didn't know what allegory was or that he accidentally put some in his books.

(Sorry couldn't drop it like that )

Back to Harad now.

[Revelo]

Even if the situation described in LotR is applicable to our world (and one could apply specific parts to way more cases than just communist Russia), Tolkien himself said that was not his intention to draw parallels and that he despised allegory. He was a linguistics professor that worked on a book for more than 15 years, we can't possibly assume that he didn't know what allegory was or that he accidentally put some in his books.

(Sorry couldn't drop it like that )

Back to Harad now.

But I always thought some places were conceived as mythological equivilient's of modern day locations, such as Tol Eressëa being the equivilient of Great Britain for example. Although that was written before Tolkien fully developed his world and was merely a framework as well.

Sorry to derail things again, but I was still curious.

[Éorl]

The thing is, although Tolkien did not intend it, you could, given some leeway, always draw some rough parallels to all past and upcoming epoches of real world history. This is because Tolkien created a mythology. Nevertheless, I'd prefer to look at his work without the ideological or similar-natured bias of drawing parallels to the real world history.

[Aradan]

Off-topic posts split to new thread, so we can now be on-topic.


Tol Eressea was never Great britain; in fact in "The Lost Road and Other Writings" it is very clear that Great Britain is where the main characters start from to get to Tol Eressea and the Undying lands (which are quite far from there).

[Aradan]

Yeah, but that's the difference between applicability and allegory we've been going on about. To quote Tolkien, "the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author. "


You might be reading it and drawing parallels between Sauron and Stalin, a French between Sauon and Hitler, a chinese person might read it and draw parallels between Sauron and Japan, a japanese person between Sauron and the US, a US person between Sauron and Iraq and so on... But Tolkien did not intend any of them, so he can't be accused of racism or whatever.


EDIT: Another nice read: http://cityofbrass.blogspot.com/2002...-allegory.html

[Éorl]

But Tolkien did not intend any of them, so he can't be accused of racism or whatever.

I, too, would claim it wasn't my intention, if I would be accused of promoting racism or something in my texts (this comment is meant tongue-in-cheek...).

Edit adds: BTW, I would draw parallels between Sauron and my neighbours... no, I'd like to correct: between orcs and my neighbours. "Drive them to the river!!! Let none live!"

[Juvenal]

Although the Shire bears an intentional resemblance to the English Home Counties, Tolkien's World was not intended to be an allegory of the Cold War World.

Tolkien was Professor of Anglo Saxon, he was creating a parallel to the Old Norse Sagas. If he was commenting on politics, it would have been Dark Ages politics!

The layout of Middle Earth is derived from the world Tolkien created in the Silmarillion. As stated above, the ancient home of Melkor's evil was in the north, while the birthplaces of both Elves and Men were in the far east and north.

Drawing a link between Valar and the USA is ludicrous! The Valar participated in the creation of the World, and thereafter tended to keep to themselves. Aman was literally the land of the Gods.