The Holy Trinity? Or The Holy Duality? And other gripes.

[Fight!]

Note that you don't have to be religious to participate, all of the following is under the assumption that there is a God and the bible is more or less true.

Keep in mind it's been a while since I've read up on scripture, but at some point last year I recall doing a bit of studying. This study was on whether the Holy Spirit was a part of the trinity, or whether it was the spirit of God.

After getting through a few chapters, I only saw evidence pointing to it being the spirit of God, and not an independent being. SO my question is, when in the bible can you find reference to the "Holy Spirit/Ghost" being separate from God? As opposed to being the spirit of God, that is.

Furthermore, and more pointedly, I find the notion that Lucifer is Evil and God is Good to be complete . Morality is a subjective thing, and God himself is guilty of the supposed "deadly sins".

Envy? Damn straight. He's referred to as a jealous god for a reason.
Pride? Ridiculously so. Humans were created TO WORSHIP HIM.
Wrath? Need I say anything?

And what about Lucifer? Does he cause people to go to hell? No. Those that go to hell are those that don't follow God's requirements for entry into heaven. Does he tempt people? He tempted a couple people, sure. Not that these iniquities compared to those of the SoB in the sky. I believe a member has the total casualty count in his sig, but God killed exponentially more than Lucifer, for reasons ranging from calling a prophet bald to being homosexual. That's not to say Lucifer is good and God is evil, but it isn't black and white.

Discuss.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

I'd have to agree with you on the morality bit. Who in the world calls someone who punishes "bad" people evil. I'd side with the occasional murderer any day than the genocidal maniac who to cover up the results of a botched experiment drowns the millions test subjects. But assuming that god is real we can solve this problem with the legendary thought terminating cliche - "god works in mysterious ways beyond the comprehension of the human mind" As for the whole holy trinity/duality, I must say that I have no idea. There have been different sects with different opinions.

[basics]

" After getting through a few chapters, I only saw evidence pointing to it being the spirit of God, and not an independent being. SO my question is, when in the bible can you find reference to the "Holy Spirit/Ghost" being separate from God? As opposed to being the spirit of God, that is."

nicoisbest,

You don't have to go very far into Genesis to see the Holy Spirit at work. In His case it is said that He brooded over the waters. Now here is where the separation between you and me begins. The Father is a blinding light, a Spirit, who sits on the throne in heaven, yes? The Spirit brooding over the waters gives the sense of something else in that He is all encompassing the planet yet is not Himself on the throne in heaven.

Then it is said that the Father announces " us " to make man in our image, the " us " being plural. We learn from most of the New Testament writers that Jesus made all things and that nothing that was made was done so but by Him. So the " us " must refer to the Father, Jesus Christ and, my belief, the Holy Ghost. A Spirit does not have an image yet we find God not only talking to men but also having an image.

If we look at this in another way, if we turn to the throne itself to suppose that God and what is called the Holy Ghost are but one Being which they are, it would be inviolate for the Father to vacate the throne that was being contested for with Diablos. But it would not be inviolate for the Spirit of God to leave the throne if He was able to work as an independent Personality yet remain at one with the Father and Him who is called the Son.

Another way to look at this is to remind the reader that no man or woman can be saved unless by faith of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. It is written that them that do have that faith must have been drawn to the Son by the Father who in the extent of that revealing does so by the Holy Ghost. In other words the Father executes the authority of who it is that is to be drawn, the Holy Ghost executes the revelation of Jesus Christ to the recipient, and the blood of Christ executes the surety of their salvation.

So, when Abel made his offering he was accounted to be righteous before God, meaning that all of the above had to have taken place in that man. His offering was made by faith, his faith, that Jesus Christ the Son of God, revealed as the " seed " in the garden would come to contend for the souls of men, to die that they might live. The Trinity was as much active then as it is today because if it weren't none before Christ Jesus could have been saved since salvation is by faith of Jesus Christ.

[Col. Tartleton]

Thats basically why I prefer the Jovial Zeus to the Yahweh account. Zeus is a dick but he's the boss. Sure Prometheus (Satan) made us smart and Epimetheus made us empathetic and loving, but Zeus does think well of us when he isn't furiously lightning storming/flooding the hell out of us.

[hellheaven1987]

I predict this has something to do with Communism...

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Thats basically why I prefer the Jovial Zeus to the Yahweh account. Zeus is a dick but he's the boss. Sure Prometheus (Satan) made us smart and Epimetheus made us empathetic and loving, but Zeus does think well of us when he isn't furiously lightning storming/flooding the hell out of us.

I like Zeus too. He's a badass but doesn't hypocritically prosecute humans for that trait either.

[SigniferOne]

Zeus does think well of us when he isn't furiously lightning storming/flooding the hell out of us.

That's because he's not that much better than us.

[SigniferOne]

when in the bible can you find reference to the "Holy Spirit/Ghost" being separate from God? As opposed to being the spirit of God, that is.

Have you read any New Testament at all? It's literally kind of on almost every page.

Now the essence of what makes the HS 'separate' is solely the fact that it's referred to as separately. For example when David in the OT is infused by God, he's not literally 'infused by God', but the Holy Spirit dwells in him. It takes a second step to say that the HS has something to do with God, for otherwise it's just a separate entity.

The very fact that you can find distinctions at all within the concept of God, makes those distinctions valid.

In the very opening of Genesis, the reference is to the "Spirit of God". Now if God is Spirit writ-large, what else is there? Shouldn't it just say "God" or something, especially if God is present everywhere? No, the old Hebrews, quite differently from the modern (post-Christian) Jews, conceived of God as having parts, and the Holy Spirit was clearly viewed as a part separate from YHWH. But both were viewed as God. In the NT the Holy Spirit is outlined, like I said, on almost every page.

Furthermore, and more pointedly, I find the notion that Lucifer is Evil and God is Good to be complete . Morality is a subjective thing

In saying that you have completely underscored the evil of atheism. Congratulations.

and God himself is guilty of the supposed "deadly sins".

Excuse me, who cares? I'm not a Catholic am I? None of the whole Catholic theology of mortal and venial sins is found in the Bible.

And what about Lucifer? Does he cause people to go to hell? No. Those that go to hell are those that don't follow God's requirements for entry into heaven. Does he tempt people? He tempted a couple people, sure. Not that these iniquities compared to those of the SoB in the sky. I believe a member has the total casualty count in his sig, but God killed exponentially more than Lucifer, for reasons ranging from calling a prophet bald to being homosexual. That's not to say Lucifer is good and God is evil, but it isn't black and white.

It's actually not that difficult at all. Killing is not some an automatic wrong.

[Fight!]

Have you read any New Testament at all? It's literally kind of on almost every page.

Could you provide a citation for me?

Now the essence of what makes the HS 'separate' is solely the fact that it's referred to as separately. For example when David in the OT is infused by God, he's not literally 'infused by God', but the Holy Spirit dwells in him. It takes a second step to say that the HS has something to do with God, for otherwise it's just a separate entity.

The very fact that you can find distinctions at all within the concept of God, makes those distinctions valid.

It takes a second step to say that the Holy Spirit does not have to do with God. After all, if we all have spirits, should it not also follow that God should have a spirit? It could easily be interpreted as God being within David.

In the very opening of Genesis, the reference is to the "Spirit of God". Now if God is Spirit writ-large, what else is there? Shouldn't it just say "God" or something, especially if God is present everywhere? No, the old Hebrews, quite differently from the modern (post-Christian) Jews, conceived of God as having parts, and the Holy Spirit was clearly viewed as a part separate from YHWH. But both were viewed as God. In the NT the Holy Spirit is outlined, like I said, on almost every page.

Actually, by stating Spirit of God, I find it is clearly established that it belongs to God, not that it is separate. Of course, this is just based off of my own experiences, if it is clearly and specifically differentiated that the Holy Spirit is separate from God, then that is all there is to it.

In saying that you have completely underscored the evil of atheism. Congratulations.

I suppose this is somehow relevant, but I fail to see how.

Excuse me, who cares? I'm not a Catholic am I? None of the whole Catholic theology of mortal and venial sins is found in the Bible.

I suppose it depends, it is merely a discussion on Ethos, Morals, et Monastica, and it seems to have brought forth some interest. If you don't care you don't have to post, it is a voluntary discussion after all.

It's actually not that difficult at all. Killing is not some an automatic wrong.

Sorry, I don't quite understand, what are you referring to here? What's not difficult?

snip

I don't suppose you can provide a quotation for me?

[basics]

" I don't suppose you can provide a quotation for me? "

nicoisbest,

Quotation of what particular part of my posting is it you want?

If it is about the Holy Ghost or Spirit we kind of have to go into the New Covenant to understand better the Old. After the crucifixion Jesus told the disciples, of whom there were over a hundred, to stay where they were so that He would send the Comforter to them, to indwell them, the Comforter being the Holy Spirit. From that point on He the Spirit would lead them into all truth. He, the Spirit indwelling them was the surety that they had been born again of God.

Now if we look back into the Old Covenant and even before, all the men and women who belonged to God were called saints. They were only so because God considered them righteous before Him. The meaning of righteous is perfection, something we should all know as the requirements to get into heaven. So, if they were perfected to get into heaven they must have had the faith of Jesus Christ by which any can get saved. And as long as they were still on the earth the Holy Spirit must have been present within them also.

There is only one way to be saved and that process is all the work of God in His three Persons but the most important thing about that is that through the precious blood shed, it is by faith of Jesus Christ. So it is written that it is from faith to faith, His faith imputed to us. And how is that done? By the drawing of the Father to the Son who is revealed by the Spirit of God whereupon He is revealed as us on the cross, paying what we should pay in the righteousness of God.

This is called conviction brought about by the double-edged sword that is the Word of God cutting into the very quick, the very soul of the recipient as he or she fumbles with what is happening to them. In the words of David, their sin is now more than ever before them and nothing but shame fills their hearts and minds. They are seeing all this but it is not Jesus that is doing it for that is the work of the Holy Ghost working on them on His behalf.

Now if that is how conviction works it follows that it must have worked also during the times before the advent of Jesus. As there is only one way into heaven and that by the blood and faith of Jesus Christ then all from Abel on must have endured the very same conviction to be righteous before God. Unregenerate man can never understand this, in fact neither do the religious of whatever religion that may be. They have their own methods of reaching that eternal place but they are not God's.

[Muagan_ra]

I had always understood the trinity and duality theories to be a palimpsest of "Paganism".

Regardless, I think this is one of those bits of theology that people argue too much about, I think the "Holy Spirit" is probably something so simple as an expression or ephemism to describe being guided by God. In otherwords, it is exactly what it sounds like in the context of the story, it is exactly what it is immediately assumed to be, just an exclamation of "holiness". Maybe it's a mistranslation from the original, ancient language (which is mostly Greek and Arahmaic, correct?)

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Envy? Damn straight. He's referred to as a jealous god for a reason.

Envy is the inordinate desier to have someone else's talents, status, possesions etc. God is not envious of your status, possesions, talents etc. anymore than I'm envious of my Warcraft character's INT status.

Pride? Ridiculously so. Humans were created TO WORSHIP HIM.

Not quite. CS Lewis describes pride very eloquently, and clearly it's not quite the way you lay it out.

Wrath? Need I say anything?

Wrath (Latin, ira), also known as anger or "rage", may be described as inordinate and uncontrolled feelings of hatred and anger

God doesn't get angry without reason. Likewise, it's right to be upset about things like social injustice or people getting taken advantage of, but it's not right just to be like "I hate the million dollar prons and want him to die because I don't like his name HOW DARE HE HAVE MONEY"

No. Those that go to hell are those that don't follow God's requirements for entry into heaven.

Yeah, kind of like the people who starve to death are those who don't eat.



Just thought I'd slip into the ring.