Errrm light cavalry beats heavy cavalry?

[CelticAssassin]

So I have noticed on multiple occasions that when using powerful heavy cavalry (General's bodyguards, Miles, etc_ versus low tier light cavalry such as Arab cavalry, I ALWAYS LOSE! What's with this? For instance I charged a group of roughly 40 Arab cavalry with a unit of around 20+ bodyguards and then in quick succession a unit of Miles hit them from the flank, killing a few of them, but after a few moments of hand to hand my general laid slain and I was down to 12 horsemen total! What gives? This makes no sense what so ever and I can't see why this is occuring. There are no stats that would suggest a bonus fighting heavy cavalry, and logic dictates that heavies would always win. Any one care to shed some light? SS 6.4, Hard/ Very Hard

[W1Z21]

did the light cal have AP? who was charging? was it on a flat plain?

[guyverlance]

did the light cal have AP? who was charging? was it on a flat plain?

So I have noticed on multiple occasions that when using powerful heavy cavalry (General's bodyguards, Miles, etc_ versus low tier light cavalry such as Arab cavalry, I ALWAYS LOSE! What's with this? For instance I charged a group of roughly 40 Arab cavalry with a unit of around 20+ bodyguards and then in quick succession a unit of Miles hit them from the flank, killing a few of them, but after a few moments of hand to hand my general laid slain and I was down to 12 horsemen total! What gives? This makes no sense what so ever and I can't see why this is occuring. There are no stats that would suggest a bonus fighting heavy cavalry, and logic dictates that heavies would always win. Any one care to shed some light? SS 6.4, Hard/ Very Hard

[Kolaris8472]

Cavalry combat is notoriously spotty because they have great difficulty finding their way against the enemy cavalry's "base".

Charges are even worse in this regard, very often I find it's in your benefit to be on the receiving end of a cavalry vs cavalry charge. The chargers get stuck, and meanwhile the stationary cav are knocking them down left and right.

Not a SS problem, or a stats problem. Just the buggy behavior of cav in M2.

[midget_roxx]

Were they charging in wedge formation? Sometimes, for whatever reason, I've seen cavalry in wedge formation do significant damage more in wedge than those not in wedge :/

[Andytheplatypus]

So I have noticed on multiple occasions that when using powerful heavy cavalry (General's bodyguards, Miles, etc_ versus low tier light cavalry such as Arab cavalry, I ALWAYS LOSE! What's with this? For instance I charged a group of roughly 40 Arab cavalry with a unit of around 20+ bodyguards and then in quick succession a unit of Miles hit them from the flank, killing a few of them, but after a few moments of hand to hand my general laid slain and I was down to 12 horsemen total! What gives? This makes no sense what so ever and I can't see why this is occuring. There are no stats that would suggest a bonus fighting heavy cavalry, and logic dictates that heavies would always win. Any one care to shed some light? SS 6.4, Hard/ Very Hard

I noticed this also. I was using Knight Templar unit against arab cavalry and I lost alot more unit then I should have. I think theres something wrong here.

[Ferdiad]

Maybe your using cav wrong?

[Jambat]

Maybe your using cav wrong?

From what I understand he's charging heavy cav into light horse archers, and then promptly getting his arse kicked in melee by said HA. Not much middle room to muck that up.

That said, I dunno can't say I've seen it. I seem to run into people who are always a step or two ahead of me on the unit roster until I become a well and true superpower, but never had highly inferior troops whip me left and right. If I had to guess, I'd wonder about fatigue, how experienced the unit was, and what bonuses (if any) the game or mods were giving AI units.

Still, I'd expect HC to whip HA's every single time in a charge.

[Andytheplatypus]

The problem I was refering to was the melee between the Templar knights and the arab cavalry. By looking at the stats the templars should have won easily. But I ended up loosing a lot more then I anticipated. The difficulty at the time was m/m so the stats werent buffed and no arab cavalry dont have maces.

[Ichon]

Arab cavalry have decent melee and larger numbers... not sure why they wouldn't do well if you don't charge them perfectly. They do have low defense but the way the mechanics work high melee attack, fast animation, and large numbers can kill lots. Leaving your own cavalry in melee after charge and relying on defense isn't always the best. You still win but take higher than expected casualties.

[The Source]

maybe they had experience, armour or wepon upgrades

and maybe they heavy calavary was just calvary miltia/merchant calvary

[Lord Humungus]

There is already a ton of threads like this. Usual explanations are these:

1. If you are playing on H/H or VH/VH difficulty, AI units get huge bonuses in battle.
2. If your cavalry was tired, they got serious penalties for attack, morale and defense.
3. Attacking uphill/downhill matters too.

That said I still believe there is something "else" going on, some bonus AI gets/exploits. Because I saw too much situations, when my fresh heavy cavalry (even scholarii!) charged some light/medium HA (like turkomans) and suffered much more casualties than they should have. I tend to agree with Kolaris8472 - there is some bug with cavalry getting "stuck" after charge. It seems they stop using they're attack animations for unknown reason. And sometimes situation is opposite - after your cavalry engaged in a melee, they start hacking/slashing like maniacs, killing dozens of enemies in seconds. It's like they have bipolar disorder.

[SoulBlade]

1. If you are playing on H/H or VH/VH difficulty, AI units get huge bonuses in battle.

Not in Med2 mate, this was only in RTW. On VH battles AI gets higher morale and during sieges the towers shoot faster.
The rest of your post is true.

[Point Blank]

Also consider the terrain. Arab cav do well in sand, heavy western cav gets badly penalized, also by heat etc as mentioned above.

[PerXX]

You guys are missing one serious factor in cavalry combat: Area of Attack (AoA).
Outside of the charge, cavalry are only capable of attacking an unit directly to their sides, not one that's at their front or back. As such, their AoA are only to their sides.

So, when your Miles attacked the flank of the Arab Cavalry, they were moving directly into the Arab Cavalry's AoA, while your own Miles would be facing them frontal, and thus not being able to attack back. They would have to maneuver around to get into a position where they could hit the enemy, all the while the Arab Cavalry would have plenty of time to cut them down. Hence, heavy losses on your end with few casualties for them.

Even in an all-out Melee between cavalry units, it's not uncommon for one see one side luck out and win the first 4-5 individual battles, and thus forcing the enemy to move forward in order for the rest of the unit to enter the melee. This means they have to move into the enemy AoA before being able to strike themselves, and thus will suffer several hits before being able to fight back.

In short, if you notice you're losing more men than you should have, your unit is probably in an unfavorable position. Withdraw your cavalry unit at once, and then charge back.

[SirRobin]

There are two AI-problems at work here, and I'm no expert but here's my thoughts about it:

At the actual charge:

When charging infantry, I think it works in a this way: the cavalry unit will charge at the centre of the enemy unit, and when they reach that spot, the charge ends. The charge destination spot is updated dynamically as the unit runs towards the enemy and through the beginning of the actual charge, but about midway to impact, the spot is fixed on the position on the ground where the centre of the enemy unit was at that time. If the enemy unit moves back from that spot, the charge will still stop when it reaches the fixed destination. This is what makes the "run away to break the enemy charge" exploit work.

When charging cavalry, I think it works in the same way, but with one difference: the enemy cavalry will often charge straight back at you, and fast enough to cover real distance. So both units fix their "charge destination spots" and then approach each other - this means that now both units are actually charging at a location a good distance behind their enemy. When the units meet head on, there's some charge-damage calculation that takes place, and here's the trick: I think that the damage done by the charge is the difference in momentum, and not, as it should be, the combined momentum.

To elaborate, please imagine two trains speeding towards each other and colliding head-on. They would both be totally destroyed, because their momentum would be combined. In this game, I think it works the opposite way: Train 1 is travelling at 100 km/hour, Train 2 is travelling at 110 km/hour, the game calculates this as an impact of 110-100= impact of 10 km/hour.

This is why so few riders are killed in the initial clash, and why they afterwards just keep running in place to reach their pre-set charge destination spot.


After the charge

Sometimes, cavalry will follow up on the charge by advancing into the enemy ranks, slashing left and right ferociously - that's what I like to see.

But more often, they will completely lose the initiative, and stand around 'daydreaming', while a torrent of blows land upon their hapless horses.

I think this is either because the game fails to update the knights's mental state to "fighting an enemy unit" after the charge, or because the AI that gives targets to the soldiers cannot decide who should fight who. It may be because the individual knights continually flick back and forth between several possible targets. The only way I know of fixing this problem is to manually order the knights to advance through the enemy unit, which changes their behavioural state from 'fighting' to 'relocating' (through targets of opportunity).


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[PerXX]

But more often, they will completely lose the initiative, and stand around 'daydreaming', while a torrent of blows land upon their hapless horses.

Yes. It seems they have a problem calculating the AoA. They simply use the same attack approach as infantry (get as close as possibly to the enemy, facing them forward). So, if they're facing the enemy flank, while pointing forward, they can't get any closer, but still can't attack because of the AoA. Recipe for death.

[SirRobin]

Yes. It seems they have a problem calculating the AoA. They simply use the same attack approach as infantry (get as close as possibly to the enemy, facing them forward). So, if they're facing the enemy flank, while pointing forward, they can't get any closer, but still can't attack because of the AoA. Recipe for death.

And yet sometimes, they seem to ride up next to their targets and slash away - why does it work sometimes and not every time, I wonder ?

And could the horse collision box be made "pointy" at the front, like the prow of a ship, so it would glide off the enemy's box instead of just going toe-to-toe?

[Losthief]

maybe your heavy cavalry was drunk?

[Ichon]

Well almost all games give use straight boxes for objects just of varying sizes so giving the cavalry wedge shape would be difficult for a whole lot of reasons but primarily its hardcoded and won't happen.

As for the AoA that is interesting idea... I usually charge in at an angle if I can so it is easier to turn and retreat and that might be giving my cavalry units additional advantage of being able to strike from their AoA without having to turn their horses.

Also this could be important when the Arab cavalry have greater numbers and are more maneuverable. They are still cavalry so even heavy cavalry have more trouble pushing through and can get bogged down while they try and reach the end of their charge before drawing secondary weapons whereas the Arab cavalry can turn and start fighting instantly and have advantage of numbers and angles where the heavier cavalry is facing forward with 3 Arab cavalry around- 1 each side and 1 in front that can strike before the heavy cavalry even draws secondary weapon. With some XP and decent base melee attack along with terrain bonuses it seems easier to see Arab cavalry doing quite well.