i do not get troops with guns

[thoran]

troops with guns in this game are clumsy and will not fire well. But in empire and napoleon they work fine. Why??

[Black John]

although invented, not yet perfected.

[Drudelo]

Empire and Napoleon take place in a later time period than Medieval 2. The guns they use are better designed and the tactics used by the troops our better formulated. At the end of the Middle Ages, guns were still very new in Western Europe and rather rudimentary in design.

[Silverheart]

As the others said; Empire takes place centuries after the end of the Medieval age, so their guns were obviously more "evolved", and gunpowder tactics were well established.
M2TW, Gunmen are almost a unique niche of their own, just like heavy Infantry or Crossbowmen.
They have different fields were they are better, and should be used in tandem with other missile troops rather than being relied upon.

[thoran]

then how do you use them well???

[Silverheart]

I think we have a thread about that very subject out in the "M2TW general discussion".
Why don´t you check it out
"what´s the point of gun powder units" - I just made a post in it, so that it would move to the top of the list.

[Leaf-Fan-Forever]

Archers and Crossbows to kill at long range, Gunmen to destroy Morale, Knights and Heavy Infintry to send them running.

[Stingray970]

If you heard a loud ear shattering boom wouldn't you be scared too? Purpose acquired.

[MastahCheef117]

1. Medieval takes place in an entire period before Empire & Napoleon (the latter taking place during the Age of Enlightenment and Age of Revolutions, meanwhile Medieval takes place in the second half of the Medieval age.)
2. When gunpowder weapons were 'discovered' by European nations in the 13th/14th century, they were NOT perfected. Their range and accuracy was a problem, most definitely. By the time of Empire and Napoleon, flintlock-operated weapons had replaced wheellock and matchlock mechanisms. Flintlock fired the lead rounds at higher velocities and with significantly increased accuracy and range.
3. At the time musketeers and other early gunpowder weapons were invented at the end of the game/real era, their deadly-ness (?) wasn't what they were primarily for - they were made, for a time, to simply scare enemies (see Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire).

[El Cid99]

i think turning skirmish mode on turns FBR off. but im not sure

[... where did it run?]

Remove "Fire_by_rank" nonsense and they will work fine, you can learn how to do that in mod workshop. Type EDU totorial in search engine and you should find all the instructions. The problem is that unit is bugged. Then it takes casualties while firing, it gets stuck on reforming. And this is not how it should be.

Now if we would see from historical point of view.. emm yes they were primitive, but arquebus and muskets were advanced enough to pierce any plate armor made at that time, including the knights in shining armour, while longbow (battle of Vernui [spelling, that one in hundred years war, then french called italian mercinary cav to help them]) and on some circumstance x-bow wasn't capable to do. Also to arm and train soldiers with these guns from economic point of view was way cheaper than bowmen who had to train from their childhood. First time in history a commoner peasant who trained only for 2 or 3 months could kill a knight armoured in gothic or top italian armour.

3. At the time musketeers and other early gunpowder weapons were invented at the end of the game/real era, their deadly-ness (?) wasn't what they were primarily for - they were made, for a time, to simply scare enemies (see Spanish conquest of the Aztec Empire).

heresy

[Leaf-Fan-Forever]

Remove "Fire_by_rank" nonsense and they will work fine, you can learn how to do that in mod workshop. Type EDU totorial in search engine and you should find all the instructions. The problem is that unit is bugged. Then it takes casualties while firing, it gets stuck on reforming. And this is not how it should be.

Yes, once fire by rank is taken off your gunpowder infantry actually become a benifit.

[13lackGu4rd]

Remove "Fire_by_rank" nonsense and they will work fine, you can learn how to do that in mod workshop. Type EDU totorial in search engine and you should find all the instructions. The problem is that unit is bugged. Then it takes casualties while firing, it gets stuck on reforming. And this is not how it should be.

Now if we would see from historical point of view.. emm yes they were primitive, but arquebus and muskets were advanced enough to pierce any plate armor made at that time, including the knights in shining armour, while longbow (battle of Vernui [spelling, that one in hundred years war, then french called italian mercinary cav to help them]) and on some circumstance x-bow wasn't capable to do. Also to arm and train soldiers with these guns from economic point of view was way cheaper than bowmen who had to train from their childhood. First time in history a commoner peasant who trained only for 2 or 3 months could kill a knight armoured in gothic or top italian armour.



heresy

1. They can work fine even without modding, you just need to learn the unit's weaknesses and how to work around them. Modding every hardship you find is the easy way out, and makes for ridiculously easy games(like removing the sword from pike units) as it severely hampers the original balance of said units.

2. Yes, gunpowder was able to penetrate every armor, but it wasn't the first time peasants with only a few months worth of training could kill knights. That my friend was the crossbow, not the arquebus. Sure, since the invention of the crossbow the knights adapted and made better armor(plate being the latest) but still for a very long time crossbowmen were the bane of knights. After all, there was a good reason for the Pope to ban the usage of crossbowmen against other Christians...

3. Heresy? Not really. There were other methods to bypass the knights' armor(even plate), see axes, maces, bodkin arrows, etc. Even light swords that could pierce into the weak spots of plate armor. Gunpowder at first was very inaccurate, slow to reload, cumbersome, etc. It was far from an efficient weapon like it turned out to be later on. In the begining it was mostly used as a morale breaker.

[... where did it run?]

1. They can work fine even without modding, you just need to learn the unit's weaknesses and how to work around them. Modding every hardship you find is the easy way out, and makes for ridiculously easy games(like removing the sword from pike units) as it severely hampers the original balance of said units.

2. Yes, gunpowder was able to penetrate every armor, but it wasn't the first time peasants with only a few months worth of training could kill knights. That my friend was the crossbow, not the arquebus. Sure, since the invention of the crossbow the knights adapted and made better armor(plate being the latest) but still for a very long time crossbowmen were the bane of knights. After all, there was a good reason for the Pope to ban the usage of crossbowmen against other Christians...

3. Heresy? Not really. There were other methods to bypass the knights' armor(even plate), see axes, maces, bodkin arrows, etc. Even light swords that could pierce into the weak spots of plate armor. Gunpowder at first was very inaccurate, slow to reload, cumbersome, etc. It was far from an efficient weapon like it turned out to be later on. In the begining it was mostly used as a morale breaker.

If you like to play with bugs, np, your choice. For some reason in 1.5 kingdoms gunpowder units works quite diffrently.

I was speaking about gothic and italian plate made with steel quenching, which were invented in late era. And that bypassing if there was some required lots of skill of which commoner hadn't had. You always need to remember that knight fights back way better than you do.

[crzyrndm]

For some reason in 1.5 kingdoms gunpowder units works quite differently.

Different fire by rank animation.
In vanilla the firing rank is always the front one, which gets interrupted by archer fire and starts cycling through for no apparent reason(easily avoided by only using 2 ranks in positions where they will likely be shot at.

In kingdoms, the NEW gunners kneel to reload, so no movement->no bug(which is easily avoided anyway). Gunners from vanilla still have old animation

[kingtigertank]

Even with fire by rank, arquebusiers and musketeers are deadly accurate with lethal damage both physically and to morale. It's just that fire by rank tends to make their formations screwed up etc, so you just have to reform your troops by right clicking and dragging.

[the new username]

in m2tw exists a bug for gunners, that when they are under fire they just stuck on reforming or reloading with the aimed guns

[napoleonic]

actually certain modders said that early musket and arquebus were better in stopping power and accurracy than in empire/napoleon era in which rate of fire was king/most important factor

[Aeratus]

actually certain modders said that early musket and arquebus were better in stopping power and accurracy than in empire/napoleon era in which rate of fire was king/most important factor

That's true. And also, muskets in the ETW/Napoleon era had more stopping power than most of today's rifles. But more stopping power isn't better, though.

[crzyrndm]

That's true. And also, muskets in the ETW/Napoleon era had more stopping power than most of today's rifles. But more stopping power isn't better, though.

seeing as you weren't likely to hit an individual target with a musket due to smooth bore barrell(the reason volley fire was used during napoleonic wars).
http://www.napolun.com/mirror/napole...ycombatmuskets,
^^interesting read on musket effectiveness, and accuracy(116 of 200 at 160yd on the practice field by british musket).
The problem of accuracy was IIRC solved partially by the british by attaching a small group of rifles(10-20) to each large group(platoon?)(100-200) which acted as skirmishers and snipers(the average rank and file dont go foward with no officers)

But Napoleoinic combat also used lead balls the size of a medium ball bearing that flattened on impact to cause real damage, hence the stopping power.