How many times can one be Born Again?

[chamaeleo]

...before God calls BS?

One of my old highschool friends, recently rediscovered on Facebook, has screwed up in just about every way imaginable: drugs & alcohol, getting caught w a prostitute by one of his 3 wives, stealing from his workplace and serving time in prison...the more I learn, the more shocked I am by his path. When I knew him, he was rabidly anti-religious, and ironically his biggest beef always seemed to be the widespread hypocrisy...

He has also been Born Again three times, now, the most recent one at the insistence of his 3rd wife (a sort of prenuptual?).

Is his slate wiped every time he's dunked underwater? Might the best thing for the guy's soul be....to arrange for a hitman to off him immediately after his latest ceremony, and could such a scheme (unbeknownst by him) possibly slip his sorry ass past the Pearly Gates?

[kesa82]

This sounds like a variation of the old, " Do you still beat your wife ? " -type of question .

Nahhh, he should just drop it and become a ( so-called ) atheist, so that at least then he won't be a hypocrite.

[Elfdude]

How you go about forgiving sins depends a lot on the denomination really. Some insist on repenting, others insist on spreading love or goodwill somehow, others insist on prayers, others simply tell you to ask forgiveness, others dunk you under the water, others insist that sins can only be forgiven by god and he only forgives them when they legitimately accept him into their heart meaning they legitimately want to be a good person i.e. god cannot be found in a wicked man's heart.

So from some of those perspectives becoming born again is completely and utterly pointless. The point of baptism is the idea of rebirth, so he hasn't actually been reborn 3 times but presumably failed to be honest the first two times (assuming he's not internally already failed the third). The point of being born again is a symbol of conversion and acceptance of jesus for salvation, if he didn't honestly do that then he never really converted or was tempted after he did. Now god is cut off from the cruel and wicked but not through his own choice but because of theirs, god is always seeking to re-establish contact. If they are wicked they are pulling themselves from god deliberately. In order to re-establish a connection they must make the effort to pull themselves back to god. The symbolism of the baptism is just that symbolism.

Which is to say god's forgiveness is generally accepted to always be open if your willing to honestly seek him but honestly seeking him implies you are a morally good person who actively seeks forgiveness. It just sounds easier in the pamphlets.

In other sects one must be baptised in order for them to be saved in death. This often must happen before the age of responsibility (when one is responsible for their own sins) which is 20 assuming one has heard the word or after one has heard the word. Generally the only sure way to damn yourself is to hear the word, deny it and live a life of sin until death and then depending on sect you may have another opportunity after death or you get eternity in hell. Presumably if you ever decide to re-establish connection with god (even after death) god will forgive you, but you have to be honest and not only believe yourself honest but know yourself to be honest because it's not a case of god deciding ok I can chat with you but of simple logic, god cannot exist in sin.

[Col. Tartleton]

What these barbarians don't get is the water is symbolic for something they do in their heads. It's a fresh start. They take a cool bath in a river and then they have to act differently. Ritual is a powerful force for the mind not for a higher power. He should be in a new place mentally if he's going to be born again. Rebirth infers a second chance. I don't think there'd be a limit on attempts, but they have to be serious or its just words.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Forgiveness of sins happens whenever you sincerely want to be forgiven.

You don't know what's happening in your friend's heart, nor do you know what his relationship with God is. That's the funny thing about sin, only two people can know when you've sinned; yourself and God. Everyone else can only speculate. It's entierly possible he's just phoning in it, but it's also possible that he has authentic problems and feels bad for the things he does.

But because I'm the Million Dollar Prons and I have to end every post with a joke I'll go ahead and say yeah when he does he's gonna show up in God's wrestling ring and he's gonna have to job on Thursday Night Superstars in Purgatory for a few million years.

[Viking Prince]

How many times can one be Born Again? How many times can one pray to one's God? Well answered by the Million Dollar Prons. Seriously, if you are referring to how many times one can be baptized --- baptism as an adult is a public affirmation of changing one's relationship with God. I see nothing differant with this than a couple renewing marriage vows.

[Helm]

The better thing to do is wait until he's virtually on his death bed then do it, that's what Constantine did. Though of course in reality it does nothing.

[Col. Tartleton]

Death is it's own reward!

[basics]

" Is his slate wiped every time he's dunked underwater? Might the best thing for the guy's soul be....to arrange for a hitman to off him immediately after his latest ceremony, and could such a scheme (unbeknownst by him) possibly slip his sorry ass past the Pearly Gates? "

Chamaeleo,

There is an impression given by certain evangelicals that one only has to ask Jesus into one's life and it is a done and dusted deal in which He has no alternative but to comply, meaning that man has the upper hand even in when he goes to heaven should he choose. Now this is quite clearly wrong and may well be part of the problem that your friend is having.

John tells us that whoever keeps sinning is not of God. Paul tells us that we may stumble yet if we truly belong to Jesus Christ, are born again of God, He will pick us up to continue serving Him. That is quite different from what you tell us about your friend and should tell you that he was never born again. Does that mean that he never will be? No it doesn't so only time will tell.

In answer to the question though, a person can only be born again but once, why? Because Jesus Christ died but once for them and if the blood shed then was not enough then going back again and again to the cross will never be enough.

[PointOfViewGun]

How many times can you die?

[basics]

" How many times can you die? "

TheDarkLordSeth,

It is written that it has been appointed that corrupt man shall die once. That is that the body and soul are separated at death. However it is also written that there is another death awaiting the soul particularly of them that are in hell awaiting their future, the regenerate soul already being with God in heaven, the latter not facing the second death.

Why Paul calls it a second death is controversial, because being taken from the holding place that is hell they are then by judgement to be cast into eternal torment by which each one would desire death rather than what they will endure. In other words it is called the second death because of the eternal torment they have rather than the life that believers enjoy with God.

So, in effect there is no death at all for the soul be it regenerate or unregenerate but to us who are on this planet at the moment what we do see is the corrupt body dying and being, for us, no more, but for the soul that is quite a different matter.

[Helm]

Why Paul calls it a second death is controversial, because being taken from the holding place that is hell they are then by judgement to be cast into eternal torment by which each one would desire death rather than what they will endure.

Barbaric stuff, but then of course what really happens is on death is we become nothing and we go no-where which is much more civilised, we live in a civilised age here.

[Viking Prince]

Barbaric stuff, but then of course what really happens is on death is we become nothing and we go no-where which is much more civilised, we live in a civilised age here.

Your belief. What does this have to do with the topic in this discussion though????

[Helm]

Your belief.

It's more an assumption in the absence of valid evidence that suggests oherwise than a belief, unless you want to count evidence from mediums and psychics as valid but I would tend to not. Not you can ever be 100% sure.

What does this have to do with the topic in this discussion though????

Not a great deal but if someone suggests I'm going to hell I suggest they will cease to exist.

[PointOfViewGun]

" How many times can you die? "

TheDarkLordSeth,

It is written that it has been appointed that corrupt man shall die once. That is that the body and soul are separated at death. However it is also written that there is another death awaiting the soul particularly of them that are in hell awaiting their future, the regenerate soul already being with God in heaven, the latter not facing the second death.

Why Paul calls it a second death is controversial, because being taken from the holding place that is hell they are then by judgement to be cast into eternal torment by which each one would desire death rather than what they will endure. In other words it is called the second death because of the eternal torment they have rather than the life that believers enjoy with God.

So, in effect there is no death at all for the soul be it regenerate or unregenerate but to us who are on this planet at the moment what we do see is the corrupt body dying and being, for us, no more, but for the soul that is quite a different matter.

Why Paul called it a second death? Because he had no grasp of what he was talking about, if Paul really existed or if he really said it of course.

The answer was one. Death has an exact definition and I didn't ask the question to a guy cracked on LSDs sitting on a desk questioning whether the bottle in front of him actually exists or not. So let's have less religious dreaming and more logical thinking.

The point is you can die once and you can be born once. It doesn't matter if your soul lives more than once but as no one remembers their past lives then they live only once.

[basics]

" The answer was one. Death has an exact definition and I didn't ask the question to a guy cracked on LSDs sitting on a desk questioning whether the bottle in front of him actually exists or not. So let's have less religious dreaming and more logical thinking."

TheDarkLordSeth,

Can I remind you of the question which is obviously related to the Biblical expression of Jesus Christ that a man must be born again if he is to enter heaven. Now you may not know about these things so your remarks don't count in this thread as they are but your opinions. Were you born again the nonsense you speak wouldn't have been said.

It never fails to amaze me how guys that are clueless about the workings of God can be so darn imaginative about things that they know nothing of yet speak as if they were authorities on the subject. There will come a day when you might be born again and on the other hand there will come a day when you'll know the difference between dreaming and the experience itself. I don't think on either occasion if and when they happen you'll bother about what is logical, its not meant to be.

[PointOfViewGun]

TheDarkLordSeth,

Can I remind you of the question which is obviously related to the Biblical expression of Jesus Christ that a man must be born again if he is to enter heaven. Now you may not know about these things so your remarks don't count in this thread as they are but your opinions. Were you born again the nonsense you speak wouldn't have been said.

It never fails to amaze me how guys that are clueless about the workings of God can be so darn imaginative about things that they know nothing of yet speak as if they were authorities on the subject. There will come a day when you might be born again and on the other hand there will come a day when you'll know the difference between dreaming and the experience itself. I don't think on either occasion if and when they happen you'll bother about what is logical, its not meant to be.

It is quite pointless to utilize an argument that says that I'll see it when I see it but don't have the chance to come back and see it. So your remarks don't count at all.

Well, I gotta give it to you. You made a very accurate analysis of what you do in these threads. You may know a lot about scripture yet you know nothing about their impact. All your posts can be summarized down to one sentence: "What I say is true because the book that says it has Bible written on it."

Re-birth has no sensible meaning on any standards. If you are reborn and remember about the past then it's inherently not a rebirth. If you are reborn and don't remember the past then that's not you anymore but a completely new one. It doesn't matter the same soul with the same bar-code resided in both bodies. It's your memories and awareness of who you are that makes you you. A material rebirth or spiritual transformation without the memories and the awareness is simply not rebirth.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Someone who is "born again", is obviously not born again. You can't really ever get rid of the nasty things you've done, you can never call back your screw ups, and if there is a God, I severely doubt a being like him will ignore someone's constant negative moral behavior and then ignore it in the slightest because he claimed to be "born again".

I could claim to be alot of things, but unless I walk the talk, I'm nothing.

[Helm]

Back on topic to me "born again" is just means "brain washed", though perhaps for criminal types and drug addicts and so it does them some good. But if only born again Christians can mke it into haven and given that something like 1% of Christians will be born again types you can imagine just how full hell is going to become. I find the whole concept even if it's fictional to be distasteful to say the least, I almost find it insulting.

[Helm]

Of course when Jesus said you have to be born again to enter heaven he may have been speaking metaphorically about the kingdom of heaven here on Earth that can be lived right now. That's what I like about religion, you can twist almost anything to make it fit the way you personlly would prefer to see it.