Dealing with The Byzantines as Hungary

[Tuatha Mordred]

Hey folks! Could use some help here. Playing SS 6.4 with MSC 5.3 (no OST), Very Hard campaign difficulty, Early Era. Read the spoiler for some background.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Currently allied with Poland, Venice and Cumans. I sent Magyar detachments with King Kalman to take Belgrade and the Prince to take Targoviste but the Romans beat me to the punch. So I turned him north to take Halych thinking the Romans won't attack me so early. Wrong!

Had an early conflict with them when they sieged Brasov 1-2 turns after they got Targoviste. I successfully "discouraged" this siege by sallying and catching all their missile troops with my FM - it was either this or certain death cos I only had 1 FM and 2 Militia Spears in the garrison, outnumbered 4 to 1, up against Skoutatis.

Meanwhile, King Kalman got Belgrade without issue and right about this time the Romans attacked Brasov. After Halych, the Prince swung back down to Targoviste to begin what will be the longest stalemate I've ever had this early in the campaign - Targoviste fell as I caught it with a minimal garrison.

Things got a little weird here. Caught a small break when Venice joined the war effort by sieging Ragusa. King Kalman, having no field fights to mangle within the range of Belgrade, went to siege Ragusa alone - while Venice was sieging it too. The Ragusa garrison sallied against me and not Venice. I sat back and let the Venetians do the heavy lifting whilst I only charged targets of opportunity. Result? Venetians lost about a third of their force and I got the city. Weird.

I needed a breather from the Romans cos my economy was averaging 1-2k profit only so I offered Ragusa for a Ceasefire. They accepted. I forgot to tear down every single building though, very silly of me... This lasted only a short time though. And now we're at war again, and this time they've moved ALL their standing armies from Anatolia to Thrace for a very-intimidating mobilization effort against me.

So here we are. The King has a combined-arms army stationed at Belgrade. The Prince has the same at Targoviste. I've won numerous engagements with the Romans in field battles through all-cav armies, including armies with FMs.

I find that I can handle everything they have but the Roman Generals are just sick! With their 18 armor rating, I can empty 2 Magyar's worth of arrows into their backs and sides and I'll barely kill a quarter. And this is done with them being exhausted from chasing my General around the battlefield. The Hungarian roster has no javelin units at all which is a real pain. I'm tempted to get Palanga just so I can recruit some Prussian Auxilia.

Now there's a medium-stack roaming around with 2 FMs in it. That's more than my Magyars can handle effectively AND still have to save arrows for the infantry. How does one deal with armor this great? I'm considering using a combined-arms stack but then my infantry will fare poorly against the superior Roman infantry and archers.

[Hejdun]

Yeah, Byzantine generals are basically tanks. I haven't found a way to kill them without them spilling a ton of my blood in the process. Heck, I'm playing as Crusader States, and I've tried about everything. Charging Templars into the backs of them results in me losing half of my Templars while killing 1-2 of their bodyguards. I've surrounded one with 4 units of Edessa Guard (8 attack and AP) and it still takes 5 minutes to wear them down (and losing 2 units' worth in the process). If you get them out in the open where they can charge... be prepared to lose 5-6 whole units just to take down 1 general no matter what you do. I don't think javelins are all that effective--they don't even have armor piercing, do they? I got lucky once and killed 8 at once with 1 flaming catapult stone. The last 10 still killed 90 of my Edessa Guards.

[Jambat]

Yeah, Byzantine generals are basically tanks. I haven't found a way to kill them without them spilling a ton of my blood in the process. Heck, I'm playing as Crusader States, and I've tried about everything. Charging Templars into the backs of them results in me losing half of my Templars while killing 1-2 of their bodyguards. I've surrounded one with 4 units of Edessa Guard (8 attack and AP) and it still takes 5 minutes to wear them down (and losing 2 units' worth in the process). If you get them out in the open where they can charge... be prepared to lose 5-6 whole units just to take down 1 general no matter what you do. I don't think javelins are all that effective--they don't even have armor piercing, do they? I got lucky once and killed 8 at once with 1 flaming catapult stone. The last 10 still killed 90 of my Edessa Guards.

I usually don't have that much of a problem with them, it's when you run into the armies with multiples they can become a serious pain if you don't have the units to bog them down and keep them busy until you move in for the kill. I'll stick a decent but not elite spear unit on them, and then charge them in the flank or rear, after the hit I'll pull back and repeat the charge; Repeat ad nauseum until dead. Templars would be great for this as they have a 14 charge which is incredibly brutal for how quickly you can pump them out.

[Lanier]

I know how you feel... playing as the Seljuks, I have absolutely nothing early in the game that can take down their generals. I'v gotten to the point where it I am planning to mod down the Byzantine general's armor. There is no way that they were historically that resilient, and it is hurting gameplay for me, so I figure it should probably be modified, so that the Byzantine generals are on the same level as the other generals.

[Jambat]

I know how you feel... playing as the Seljuks, I have absolutely nothing early in the game that can take down their generals. I'v gotten to the point where it I am planning to mod down the Byzantine general's armor. There is no way that they were historically that resilient, and it is hurting gameplay for me, so I figure it should probably be modified, so that the Byzantine generals are on the same level as the other generals.

They were. They were the heaviest armored warriors in the world at that point in time, literally head to toe from rider to mount in at least three layers of protection. However, I wouldn't cry if the armor dropped a point or three for the sake of balance.

It was said in another thread that the Seljuk's do well in the 1200's when they start to receive decent infantry and cav, but it's surviving to that point that's the big question mark. Someone modded the recruitment and brought in that second wave from the start and said things were much more balanced that way.

[Ilkanor]

I know how you feel... playing as the Seljuks, I have absolutely nothing early in the game that can take down their generals. I'v gotten to the point where it I am planning to mod down the Byzantine general's armor. There is no way that they were historically that resilient, and it is hurting gameplay for me, so I figure it should probably be modified, so that the Byzantine generals are on the same level as the other generals.

As a Seljuk Player one Advice:

-Use Archers so soften the Bodyguard, HA are better for this (quality ones).
-Use Javelinmen, they hit the Bodyguard even if spearmen in front of the javelinmen pin them.
-As Mentioned Charge with your Bodyguard into the Back of the Roman Bodyguard, retreat and do it again.

Als Seljuk i pull out Javelinmen like crazy because they are one of the best Units you can get in your era. In an Open Battle, if your economy is good, get some Khwarezmian Mercenarys.....2 of them with repeatet charge - retreat kill Bodyguards easily.

But i Agree....the Athanaoui is far to resillient. They should be better as others but not that far better. They are more disappointing than schollaari

[Erunion Telcontar]

When you can, use Halberds. Halberds should destroy the generals. Other than that, tie them down with a heavy spear (armoured sergeants will do) then hit 'em in the rear with anything AP or repeated charges from heavy lancers. They won't last forever.
When you get to the later era, look for any of your cavalry that have a secondary weapon that is an axe or a mace - this usually means their secondary is armour piercing. While it's an invisible stat, having an AP secondary is a huge boost for heavy cavalry, and will give you the boost you need to take down heavies like our Byzantine generals.

[Tuatha Mordred]

I'v gotten to the point where it I am planning to mod down the Byzantine general's armor. There is no way that they were historically that resilient, and it is hurting gameplay for me, so I figure it should probably be modified, so that the Byzantine generals are on the same level as the other generals.

It's a shame that it has to come to this though. I'd rather not edit unit stats; I put a lot of stock in the mod-makers balancing, preferring to work with what's given. I assume they've done their fair research and made it as historically-accurate as possible.

So I'm not the only one facing huge problems with the Byzantine generals, huh. I find that pinning with militia-grade spears and swinging round the back with Croats Axemen tends to do the job pretty well - but geez, the losses are so... unacceptable. More than half of those units won't be going home to see their wives and children. And you still gotta worry about the other infantry, which are tough too but at least tolerable.

And should you keep on losing this amount every fight while the Romans keep up with stacks powered by their strong economy and high replenishment rates, it quickly becomes ruinous for you.

[Thefallenhun]

Historically, the Kataphractoi cavalry had great dificulty in combatting Seljuk horse archers. The Turks bred a much lighter and faster horse and didn't wear heavy armor, so they could Parthian the hell out of an opposing Byzantine force in a hurry. This went doubly so if they fought anywhere high temperature, as that heavy armor makes them broil

[Kolaris8472]

Yeah, Family Members are the worst.

If you have a Mediterranean Port, which you probably don't, you could run down to Libya for some Javelin cavalry mercenaries. They aren't great, but it's a couple more casualties. Upkeep is probably too high for your situation though.

I haven't played as Hungary, and my Lithuanian experiences with them had Javelins, but when I faced them as Sicily taking out the Bodyguards usually involved either Ballistas or just Assassinating them before it even became an issue.

[Losthief]

Yeah, Family Members are the worst.

If you have a Mediterranean Port, which you probably don't, you could run down to Libya for some Javelin cavalry mercenaries. They aren't great, but it's a couple more casualties. Upkeep is probably too high for your situation though.

I haven't played as Hungary, and my Lithuanian experiences with them had Javelins, but when I faced them as Sicily taking out the Bodyguards usually involved either Ballistas or just Assassinating them before it even became an issue.

u can get breton light cav. in toulouse/marsille

[Marcvs Antonivs]

I have a campaign with Hungary as well and I found them extremely annoying and hard to kill. The only way to surpass them was through numbers and even so many times I stood no chance agaisnt them. Militias and levies are no match for their generals. Finally managed to get all of balkans, greece, and a bit of Turkey. They are left to two settlements, Rhodes and Sinope or something like that which doesn't border me. They are really annoying. Many times I asked for ceasefire and they accepted, for the very next turn they break the ceasefire and attack me again. Dumb AI

[prima legio]

when i play with venice or hungaryan i have always a lot of problem to kill the bizantin generals,the only thing that I found useful is to use a very high number of spearmens and hevy cavallery,but is very hard....

[Ferdiad]

Whats the problem, just charge in with some AP unit when they're engaged.

[Jambat]

Whats the problem, just charge in with some AP unit when they're engaged.

I think the big problem is that the OP is in a really odd place to fight vs certain factions as Hungary until he reaches that third tier of Castle upgrade troops. Until that point Hungary really is lacking in shock troops and plays in a more stick-and-move style. Before that I think his only real option is to stick Spear Militia or Slav Levies on the FM and try to crash Croat Axemen into their blindspot. No matter how that plays out though there's going to be a lot of casualties. It's kind of like the Seljuk's until they receive the Ghulam reinforcements of 1200.

[Dark Lord's Heir]

Well if you guys have problems with Roman bodyguard cavalry, then all you need to do is get horse archers, and place stakes in the ground. Along with flanking them, use mostly bodyguard cavalry to do this

[Tuatha Mordred]

Well if you guys have problems with Roman bodyguard cavalry, then all you need to do is get horse archers, and place stakes in the ground. Along with flanking them, use mostly bodyguard cavalry to do this

Oh brother, that I've done; trust you me. I chose to play Hungary so I can play a HA-heavy Catholic faction. Early in the game when the Hungarian economy is negligible at best and the only rebel cities within uncontested reach is Belgrade, you can only spam so much Roman General Kill Squads before you either stifle your economy OR you run out of troops due to RR.

In fact, I didn't even do that; I ran around the map harassing Roman stacks which I figure I can take on with my all-HA armies. This included many fights with Roman FMs where there's only that that they have in the way of cavalry (or I can attain cavalry superiority over what cav they have). I sent in the HA to lure out the FM to kite him till he's down to a manageable number and then charge with my general. But the fact of the matter is... that armor makes them very, very tough to kill. Mind you, Magyar Cavalry have 5 Missile Attack rating.

I managed to overcome them in the end though. The break in the stalemate came when they stack-attacked a bridge south of Targoviste and lost everything. Suddenly, I have them on the back foot. The Prince took Sofia while that bridge army marched towards Adrianople. On the far west my FL had taken Scopia and exchanged for Baia with the Cumans - I couldn't hold it and still continue on the offensive and there's no way I'm letting a castle fall into Roman hands. He's now starving out Ragusa for 9 turns while an all-cav field army fends off reinforcement stacks.

Soon, I'll have Constantinople.

PS: Is this a development oversight? Magyar Cavalry is Local even for Hungary. Seeing how in the Early period with RR the only thing that Stables of all levels train are Magyar Cavalry, castles like Ragusa have a whole lot of nothing trainable from the Stables line. Not a single thing. Same for Scopia.

[Marcvs Antonivs]

Indeed, I had to waste 4 to 5 units of spearmen to kill off their bodyguards and scholarii... and I say nothing else

[luciferleigh]

Most of you have already found the solution, which is Croat axemen, going against them as Venice, that's mostly what I did, militia to absorb, seargents (sometimes + mer macemen) behind them, hit em once with some cav then send in the Croats... Magyar/noble cav to tire them, crossbows too if you have any.

The athanathoi problem isn't the amount of armor they have, but the fact that the ai accepts most adoptions (afaik) thus leading to the amount of family members they have, if you think that's bad, wIt till you have to face the heir or the emperor with their 40-50 man bodyguard unit

[RomanKiller]

It's beyond stupid and ahistorical

If anything the Khwarezmians should have that type of bodyguard ... the Persians practically invented heavy cavalry when the romans were fighting in their skirts ... either them or the Egyptians